20 signs you don’t want that web design project
Most clients are good clients, and some clients are great clients. But some jobs are just never going to work out well. Herewith, a few indicators that a project may be headed to the toilet. Guarantee: All incidents taken from life.
- Client asks who designed your website.
- Client shows you around the factory, introducing you to all his employees. Then, behind closed doors, tells you: “If you do a bad job with this website, I’m going to have to let these people go.”
- Client takes six months to respond to your proposal, but doesn’t change his due date.
- At beginning of get-acquainted meeting, client informs you that someone has just bought his company.
- Client, who manufactures Russian nesting dolls, demands to know how many Russian nesting doll sites you have designed.
- At meeting to which you have traveled at your own expense, client informs you that he doesn’t have a budget per se, but is open to “trading services.”
- Client can’t articulate a single desired user goal. He also can’t articulate a business strategy, an online strategy, a reason for the site’s existence, or a goal or metric for improving the website. In spite of all that, client has designed his own heavily detailed wireframes.
- As get-acquainted meeting is about to wrap, the guy at the end of the table, who has been quiet for an hour and 55 minutes, suddenly opens his mouth.
- Leaning forward intensely, client tells you he knows his current site “sucks” and admits quite frankly that he doesn’t know what to do about it. He asks how you would approach such a problem. As you begin to speak, he starts flipping through messages on his Blackberry.
- Client announces that he is a “vision guy,” and will not be involved in the “minutia” of designing the website. He announces that his employee, the client contact, will be “fully empowered” to approve each deliverable.
- On the eve of delivery, the previously uninvolved “vision guy” sends drawings of his idea of what the web layout should look like. These drawings have nothing to do with the user research you conducted, nor with the approved recommendations, nor with the approved wireframes, nor with the approved final design, nor with the approved final additional page layouts, nor with the approved HTML templates that you are now integrating into the CMS.
- Your favorite client, for whom you have done fine work in the past, gets a new boss.
- The client wants web 2.0 features but cannot articulate a business strategy or user goal.
- Shortly before you ship, the company fires your client. An overwhelmed assistant takes the delivery. The new site never launches. Two years later, a new person in your old client’s job emails you to invite you to redesign the site.
- Client sends a 40-page RFP, including committee-approved flow diagrams created in Microsoft Art.
- Client tells you he has conducted a usability study with his wife.
- Client begins first meeting by making a big show of telling you that you are the expert. You are in charge, he says: he will defer to you in all things, because you understand the web and he does not. (Trust your uncle Jeffrey: this man will micromanage every hair on the project’s head.)
- As approved, stripped-down “social networking web application” site is about to ship, a previously uninvolved marketing guy starts telling you, your client, and your client’s boss that the minimalist look “doesn’t knock me out.” A discussion of what the site’s 18-year-old users want, backed by research, does not dent the determination of the 52-year-old marketing guy to demand a rethink of the approved design to be more appealing to his aesthetic sensibility.
- While back-end work is finishing, client rethinks the architecture.
- Client wants the best. Once you tell him what the best costs, he asks if you can scale back. You craft a scaled-back proposal, but, without disclosing a budget or even hinting at what might be viable for him, the client asks if you can scale it down further. After you’ve put 40 hours into back-and-forth negotiation, client asks if you can’t design just the home page in Photoshop.
Tags: client services, client management, clients, agency, agencies, freelance, work, working, design, designing, designing life
Filed under: Career, Design, Working, business, client services, development, work
This is fantastic.
#19 is my biggest pet peeve.
:)
Ahhhh…..good times. :) Spot on Mister Z.
If I had a penny for every time I’ve been asked to design a Russian nesting doll site…
I love websites for Russian nesting dolls. Every link in the main navigation opens a new, smaller window behind the one you’re on.
Perfectly said … I love #5 and #20 the most, sadly because they are the two I come across the most.
#7 is heartbreakingly true. To really make anything near useful in a design, you need alllll of those… and usually you just get napkin sketches.
Second!!!!11!!
The worst one is when the client asks for jQuery to be implemented
I think #16 isn’t so bad, if your wife is honest and unrelated to the project.
Wow,
Thanks for this list… I chuckled having been in many of these situations. The #11 and #19 items actually happen at my job pretty regularly.
Thanks again
Aaron I
The last one is awesome.
Man, oh, man. AMEN!
Love it Zeld! LOL #15 MS Clip art…calssic!
You are so right, like you so often are.
[...] Jeffrey Zeldman Presents : 20 signs you don’t want that web design project Social Bookmarking: [...]
I trust my Uncle Jeffrey, and I can empathize. Thanks for this.
This isn’t strictly confined to web design but the worst thing is when you have a client who is technologically retarded, knows nothing about computers or the web. That client then says to you “Try not to use jargon, in fact, make it as simple as you can for me.” When you do this, they promptly get annoyed with you because “You’re talking to them like an idiot” and things get awkward.
#7 made me laugh so hard, I startled the birds outside my office.
I’m going to have to share these with my web design students. They’re too good not to.
Hahaha, Uncle Jeffrey, that is a great list!
#17, hard lesson to learn!
#17 is so close to being the biography to my life that it’s just not funny. Well, maybe a bit.
The best is when number 5 and number 6 are the same client!
Will work 4 Russian Nesting Dolls.
I work as a developer for an advertising agency and I can tell you that I’ve felt all of these even though I’m shielded by a layer of managers. Don’t even want to know how bad it was for them if even I could feel the ripples of, especially, #19.
While these are all annoying, frustrating and true, it’s so nice to know that this shit happens to everyone–including Jeffrey Zeldman.
Sadly I’ve had #3 happen to me twice this year. And even more painfully, I have #17 happening to me right now.
#’’s 1, 13 and 20 ring too recently true. Great list!
Question re: #14; did you end up redesigning the site… again?
I see variants of these when drafting network specs for clients. Why pay for Cisco hardware when you can get “the same thing” from Belkin? You’ve nailed the pitfalls of design in *any* industry!
Uncle Jeffrey, great list.
#10 and #11 - the ‘vision guy’, I hate that guy. And #15, ‘created in Microsoft Art’ really made me laugh.
This list is inducing some PTSD.
Regarding #11, business software client “vision guy” once produced his sketch of Wolverine from the X-Men to prove his design skills.
It *was* a pretty good likeness,
Brilliant! Please keep articles like this coming. :)
Spot on. At least four of these points happened in the last week. The other 15 (forgive me, I have yet to pursue a manufacturer of Russian nesting dolls) have either happened in the past or are expected to happen at my meeting today.
[...] at zeldman.com, Jeffery Zeldman has a great post with the 20 reasons you don’t want that web development project. Of particular importance to me are items #7, #17 and #19… all of which I’ve [...]
My faves from experience in the field: #11, 17, 18, 19.
The other dreaded statement: “I’ll know it (the desired design) when I see it”, which usually is somewhere in #18. Ahh, good times!
This seriously had me laughing solid for like 10 minutes. GREAT post. :)
laughed so hard it hurt me- follow you on twitter and then I got to this comment and it hurt me some more…
# Greg said on December 4th, 2008 at 10:44 am:
I love websites for Russian nesting dolls. Every link in the main navigation opens a new, smaller window behind the one you’re on.
I did creatives for that client!
It’s so nice to know that other people are going through these as well. #20 was the entire start to my freelancing career.
OMG number #17 — the “you’re the expert” speech preceding worst ever micromanaging — my last job went *exactly* like that. WTF???
Great list! Many of them sound uncomfortably familiar….
Just finished a site last week; after uploading final APPROVED version, got an email saying, “Great! We’re ALMOST done! Now we just need [these two pages added to the footer] and [one more page we forgot to mention—added to the MENU BAR, and which requires me to create another FORM!]
ACK!!
So, I’m guessing you don’t have any Russian nesting doll site experience?
Oh, hell, no.
Had me laughing for quite a while. Reminded me of the client who designed his logo in Excel. This past year I’ve had #3, #7, #12, and #15.
I follow you on twitter (probably list so many others) and I just read through the list.
So far I’ve encounted 1 3 5 6 7 10 11 12 14 16 17 19 20 *sighs*
How can you be so sick and write so well?
Wow, so true it hurts! Great post.
Yes! And how about when a site design has passed through numerous approvals when someone suddenly steps in to announce that it doesn’t meet branding guidelines — despite the fact that the designer referred to the branding guidelines throughout and what that person is really saying is, “I don’t like it.”
Great list. #10 is always scary. I’ve never had a project end well with someone lie that at the top.
And you’re right about #17… every single time.
I could swear I went through all 20 in about 90% of the projects I’ve been involved over the years. I know I should have given that shoe repair gig a second thought. Although shoemakers probably have their own “20 signs” lists too.
I work with a client that does #3 & #17 with astonishing regularity - then moves to #19 & #20
[...] Go here to read the rest: Jeffrey Zeldman Presents : 20 signs you don’t want that bweb design/b b…/b [...]
So who designed your website?
Client provides vague specification. When pressed for details, client provides more vague specifications. When you begin implementing what you think he has in mind, he says, “That’s not quite what I had in mind.”
Client provides most information over phone calls. When you repeatedly suggest that the client put his thoughts down in an email, he doesn’t. He prefers to continue to give instructions and changes over the phone.
Client is a startup who tries to get you to accept stock options as part of the payment.
I can confidently say that in my 12 years in this industry I’ve experienced all of these apart from #1 - oh, and Russian dolls… Just last week I had an initial client briefing meet where a bunch of guys in their 60s called me ’son’ (I’m nearly 40) and their sole objective for the site (despite much tactful questioning) was it had to be ‘accessible’.
It’s like water off a duck’s back now…
[...] Jeffrey Zeldman Presents : 20 signs you don’t want that web design project (tags: webdesign) [...]
[...] Jeffrey Zeldman—as always, it seems—speaks the truth: Most clients are good clients, and some clients are great clients. But some jobs are just never going to work out well. Herewith, a few indicators that a project may be headed to the toilet. Guarantee: All incidents taken from life. [...]
i can’t tell you how many times #3 has happened to me. an excellent list — love this!
Holy crap… yes, thanks. I’d be retweeting it if all the folks who follow me and would care aren’t also following you.
I propose #21 as follows (because I seem to specialize in these, so it’s hard not to imagine that you haven’t gotten your fair share):
“Client or primary contractor comes to you on referral, and immediately discloses that the project has gone off the rails because somebody got in over their head. He asks you to rescue his project.”
These jobs CAN be pulled off, but should be avoided unless you’re a sucker for hard cases and have plenty of money in the bank. A corollary to this is that EVERYBODY has ALWAYS burned through most (if not ALL) of the budget by the time you get the call.
i had #20 happen last night.
argh.
Russian nesting dolls are the core of my business. I have done countless sites for Russian nesting doll manufacturers… ;)
Experienced a number of those incidents. Fun!
[...] Jeffrey Zeldman Presents : 20 signs you don’t want that web design project. These sound particularly familiar: [...]
actually it was a #3 and #20… you have to love the two-fer!
[...] 20 signs you don’t want that web design project [...]
[...] Jeffrey Zeldman Presents: 20 signs you don’t want that web design project. [...]
That list is great and all, but how many times have you have been told to build a website for a company that doesn’t have a name for itself, doesn’t have a mission statement, or a strategy for what they want to accomplish as an organization conjured up yet? But, they know they need a website launched in the next weeks…
#17 is on my shit list forever.
I’m going to use this in my class today. Great article, something every web builder should know.
[...] 20 signs you don’t want that web design project You can leave a comment, or trackback from your own site. RSS 2.0 [...]
Jeffrey,
This is superb. Most have happened to me, I look forward to the rest. #8 (silent man at end of table suddenly opens his mouth) happened to me last week!
You speak the truth.
That should have read “next 6 weeks”. Sorry about that!
…To which I should add, our paths have crossed at #12. Though I occasionally regret it, I did the meet & greet, sent in my W-9, and then fell off the face of the earth because I got That Feeling.
#16 “And? Did she turn out usable?”
Well done uncle Z! It’s funny, because it’s true. *sob*.
It’s tough to choose a favorite, but “Client tells you he has conducted a usability study with his wife” is classic. Unfortunately it often happens midway through the design process, and then periodically during development.
Can I add one?
#21. Client wants to spend several hours a day talking about the progress of the their web site, but only wants to be billed for hours spend coding.
This is what I got from a client after I sent her a cost estimate: (i quote)
HI THERE
THANX FOR THE MEETING TODAY. ARE THERE A POSSIBILITY THAT YOU AND YOUR COMPANY CAN SPONSOR THE WEBSITE-DESIGN FOR ‘PASSION FOR WEDDINGS’. I REALY LIKE YOUR IDEAS AND WOULD LOVE TO WORK WITH YOU IN FUTURE .IT COULD ALSO MEAN A LOT FOR YOUR COMPANY AND I WANT TO GIVE YOU THE OPPORTUNITY.PLEASE LET ME NOW. THANX XX
——–
Shame on her!
The first one cracked me up real good.
five weeks before launch of new online banking site, client says ‘can we make it not a bank?’
We launched
Just had someone call me up, after finding our website online, ’so can i see examples of your work?’.. Hand holding or hang up the telephone time..?
Ringing a few alarm bells there! Luckily we have a good bullshit detection policy in place now and have some great clients :)
#3 … every time. Every. Time.
Like everybody else, #17 is right on. I trust you, Uncle Z.
Ha! Hilarious and unfortunately too many of them ring true. Well done sir!
It’s so amusing to read this now that I’ve been in the industry for many years and experienced the exact same events occur. Nice one Jeffrey.
#15
just got one of those documents TODAY…
oh hell.
Jeff, what can I do.
[...] Nice list from Jeffrey Zeldman. Dealt with a few of them before but #2 is far and away the funniest thing on the list: Client shows you around the factory, introducing you to all his employees. Then, behind closed doors, tells you: “If you do a bad job with this website, I’m going to have to let these people go.” [...]
Preach it, Sister Catherine!
Hallelujah, Brother Ben!
Have mercy, Sister Bridget!
These are awesome. Reminds me of a site I used to visit : Clientcopia: http://www.clientcopia.com/ “Stupid Client Quotes”. Worth checking out if you haven’t seen it before.
C’mon guys. We’ve all been asked to design Russian nesting doll sites. But srsly … they’re called matrioshka’s. Isn’t that common knowledge? lol
You had me at #1.
I’m still laughing.
Why is everybody laughing? Can’t you feel the pain???
Nice one, mr Zeldman
#18 - sometimes its your boss who does it to every project
[...] a link directly to the man, Zeldman. So check it out. The best part of it all is the fact that “All incidents taken from [...]
You sir, have induced flashbacks.
i’m laughing and not laughing at the same time.
The pain is unbearable…
#13 is brutaaaaal XDDDD
I love my uncle Jeffrey
I love it when I get asked to design UX with someone’s mother who doesn’t own a computer in mind.
Sooooooooo true. #17 just happened last week. At least I finally wised up and fired the client before further damage could be reaped.
You list is brilliant, accurate and funny. Too bad it it’s so true. -DS
Literally laughed out loud! So true!
In just a year of working for my current company I’ve experienced numbers 3, 5, 8, 10, 11, 14, 16, 18 and 19.
I concur with uncle Jeffrey, number 19 is the one to avoid at all costs. Makes me sad to think about it again…
Mate, this is wonderful. Have experienced all 20 and considering changing career.
I’m puzzled.
Why has everyone been asked to do a Russian nesting dolls’ site except of me?
And sometimes it’s the design firm. In 1998 I interviewed with a company that prided itself on it’s cutting edge design mojo, and as example showed me a landing page they made that produced little graphic bullet holes across the page while a huge .wav file loaded and provided the audio.
#7 is giving me flashbacks!
Great list—I’m laughing and nodding and crying all at once. This is why people decide to go the Coudal route and be their own clients. Saves the hair on your head from getting pulled out.
Makes you feel good, though, when someone “gets it”, becomes a long-time client, and maybe even a friend. That is rare, but precious.
#7 kills me — I usually want to say, “Email me when you have your $@#$% together and we’ll talk.” Unless you really want me to give you business advice, do your market research, plan your company strategy… but, wait, I’m just the web designer, right?
That has happened to me several times… how can I build you a website if you don’t even have a company yet?
My life in a nutshell. This is why I’m working hard to become a full-time sculptor…
I thought this an appropriate place to include the #1 support request that now hangs on my “Client Wall of Shame”.
[...] zeldman, also known from alistapart, has a nice 20-things… [...]
@ Lance Willett
I’m so glad someone else knows my pain. A website should help further the goals and mission of the business. It seems to me that a company should first have those things in place so that the web can be a valuable tool in their arsenal. But to think “website first, business goals later”??? This doesn’t make one bit of sense to me.
[...] 20 signs you don’t want that web design project by Jeffrey Zeldman. [...]
These all sound like nightmare situations. I’m glad I’ve only experienced 8 - 10 of them so far.
If I were to request your services, Jeffrey Zeldman, don’t worry. I wouldn’t do any of these things. Sincerely, Jeffrey Guterman.
These days I finding clients I do want is much harder. Virtually every client is one I don’t want, usually because of things on this list. Which is the main reason I’ve decided to change my line of work, actually.
[...] I’m sending to a first an article on "20 signs that you don’t want that web design project". It’s a great lead in to a topic I’m going to be writing about tomorrow about [...]
[...] These true anecdotes about sum it up:: [...]
I just hung up with a #5 and #20 prospective client. We talked over an hour on the phone on his needs. I explained we did several sites that look a little like his needs, but nothing right on the money.
I give him an order of magnitude for the cost (2 days of work for the coding), and he tells me : “That doesn’t sound right”.
I tell him it’s only two days because we use an open-source CMS and we did some of the functionalities already.
He goes “If you did things like that in the past, it should take 2 hours, not 2 days. Send me by e-mail the list of websites like the one I want and a decent proposal.”
I tried to explain to him that we didn’t do anything JUST like his needs, and that not everything is reusable, but he didn’t flinch.
I love this list!
I’m currently involved in a project gone totally down the crapper that has had numbers 3, 8, 15 and 19 happen to it. Even so, we’re actually launching tomorrow (two weeks to late and with my overtime exceeding my sleeptime for the last two months).
Ahh, a list of why I am moving into photography. Specifically it was item 3 that cast me over the edge.
I experienced a combo of #17 and #20 - first the client told me I was the expert, as he - obviously - wasn’t one… Then, when I told him how much it would cost, he told me his nephew could do it for free, so I should scale the costs down or else… Needless to ask, I chose the second option.
Fantastic list, thanks!
[...] Read the original: Jeffrey Zeldman Presents : 20 signs you don’t want that web design … [...]
OK, time to dry off the tears (not sure if it’s because I’ve been laughing at flashbacks of my own stupidity or crying due to phantom pain from past experiences).
What makes me even sadder, however, is the fact that I’m currently working as an employee for a company that has no defined business goals, no marketing strategy, definitely no mission statement . . . wants at least three different web sites, doesn’t particularly like any design proposals that I present to them, doesn’t have any products yet and commits practically every other item on this list.
Where was this list five months ago?
#20 just happened to me!
When they pushed back for the n’th time and, in the process, managed to offer me an out … I called their bluff. “Yes, that’s fine, I don’t mind if you need to take this project elsewhere.”
They went ballistic … but I slept better that evening.
Got hit by a combo of 17 and 20 this summer. Happy to no longer be doing client work.
With the exception of the Russian nesting dolls, I think every one of these has happened to me.
\”Client tells you he has conducted a usability study with his wife.\”
That\’s what she said…
[...] has put out 20 signs things will go bad in your web designer / client relationship based on his industry experience. I’ve met a few [...]
[...] UPDATE: On a related note, Jeffrey Zeldman writes about 20 signs you don’t want that web design project. [...]
Also, add to this list:
#21. Any client who wants this project done in a few days, ASAP or any other unrealistic deadline should raise a red flag. It is not worth it.
Here is also a great article by Freelance Swith on 12 types of clients:
http://freelanceswitch.com/clients/12-breeds-of-client-and-how-to-work-with-them/
OMG this is too funny. and true. I think I’ve hit all of’ em and I’m a backend person.
Excellent (or is it “terrible”?) list sir. Also, see: http://twitter.com/badclient
Nice list. The one that always kills me is: “We need this done tomorrow.” And then, when you send the invoice, payment comes in approximately 8 weeks.
Always trust your Uncle Jeffrey, he’s a very wise man
And this is EXACTLY why I seldom do web work for clients. They drive me nuts. I just don’t have the patience or the tact. I’ve even fired a prospective client once … one who begged me to take the job. Frankly, I really don’t know how you guys do it.
OMG LOL.
we are dealing with 3 of those issues right now!
sandy
megastarmedia.com
Mr. Zeldman, you should have made this list last year. #17 is so spot on. The flashbacks, the flashbacks I tell ya! Perhaps every developer is susceptible at some point during his or her career to excess flattery. I can hear the collective inner monologue going something like this: “They love me. They really, really love me!”
Dude, this is your best and funniest post in years.
This is spot on. 19 and 20 are the ones I encounter the most. To be honest, I don’t even know what a Russion Nesting Doll is :-/
Whoops. Russian*
From a copywriter’s perspective, there are also the all too common clients who steadfastly refuse to use any contractions or allow a contraction to start a sentence.
That should be: starting sentences with a conjunction. Sorry, too much eggnog.
In a recent meeting a client employee mentioned that Web 2.0 is really big right now, so they should probably implement some type of ‘blogging strategy.’
We almost died.
Very funny. Very true.
Oh, Uncle Jeffrey, you forgot my fave:
“Can you print out the whole website for me to review?”
Good times.
Yes, this really happened to me in 2005 at the end of a very arduous process. It was over a hundred pages.
Luckily for me, his secretary printed it and the worst part is when he wanted to discuss widowed words at the end of paragraphs. Then I had to attempt to explain a liquid layout.
This is so true and some clients just cant make up their minds on what they want or often forget their websites objective. #13 applies to alot more then just 2.0 technology. Great post, I’m following your blog now, cheers!
Modified 11:
Everything is done 20 people (including programmers) working for over 2 months. Client comes to the office and takes a look at the display and sais “Is that my website?”.
The best I’ve ever heard personaly:
“We want our font on the website.”
“Why the fonts on design differs on website!”
“When I see design that includes serif ans sans-serif fonts together I send them to design kindergarden, BLOGGER this is what we want!”
“Icons, icons, icons!”
Pardon my english ;)
[...] under: Design, Refresh FridayDec 5,2008 20 Signs You Don’t Want that Web Design Project: Menurut Zeldman. Salah satunya: client takes six months to respond to your proposal, but doesn’t [...]
I tried my best to hide, oh, about half of these coming from internal gremlins, so you would want that web design project. I’m happy I succeeded, but it’s been frightening at times :-).
Thank You for the list. I think I might be able to contribute.
Client comes to first meeting wanting you to copycat a site they “love” and shows up with a folder of examples that amounts to nothing but elements with no clear purpose. But of course to them it does. They go on to reject every idea you have cause it is “all about them”. Not the end user.
I suggested Frontpage and left. Just sad.
Taken from life: client asks for a logo page linked from the header logo because an internet savvy friend told him so.
Great article Jeffrey!
You’re so right, I have seen many of these before. It makes me feel better that these problems are widespread and it’s not just me!
Two that stick in my mind:
1. Client hire’s you to design logo for new business - after inital designs/ideas brain storming send client a ’sheet’ of worked up logos, client picks one he like the best - work that up, send it back here nothing for about 3 weeks then recieve a letter though the post stating how crap the logo was, how poor your service was, and how his 16 yr old son has designed a better logo… and he’s not paying.
2. Phone call from prospect who says a friend refered him on the grounds of how good a job we did… we’d never heard of his friend or did and work for them but agreed to come down for a meeting, sat down to discuss project etc and the guy became aggressive/started raising his voice demanding to know in detail how we would go about it all e.g. (project was an extranet/intranet for a large business park) “How are you going to find out what things the businesses want?”, “Well, we would contuct a survey initally…” - interruption - “SO YOU’RE GOING TO INTERVIEW EVRYONE IN THE BUSINES PARK ARE YOU????!!!!!”, “eerrrr, no…”
Number seven would fit very well my current employed work situation.
#22 Clients thinks we should really do something with ‘Flash’. Note: client usually says this at the very first meeting
all except 19, by this time you’re already in knee deep, chop your own legs off and erm crawl out of there?
My personal favorite involved working for a large UK newspaper:
Their head of online development asked for our XML feed to be ‘comma separated’.
First time on your site, Unc and I really loved the post. I’ve been freelancing as a front-end developer for 4 years and this is the first time I’ve bothered to comment any post ever.
OMG! I think I have had every single one in 13 years! Even the Nesting Russian Dolls was “have you done a water utilities site with an underwater classroom where users can swim from task to another?” !!!
Had the nut in the factory, had #16 the wife’s usability (and creative) assessment, etc. The latest is the client who is the CEO with the vision and has final signoff, then has to consult 5 other partners who disagree and then he backs down and then gets blanded out to corporate crap
Scary …… very scary.
When you read such articles (and some of the comments that follow) you just know the experience and wealth of knowledge that you guys possess. I still have a very very very long way to go.
I just suffered #12 a month ago. Jarring blow, I tell you! :(
[...] Jeffrey Zeldman Presents : 20 signs you don’t want that web design project. [...]
#13 is the most often for me, and probably the most annoying one.
Well expressed but there a few others I could suggest.
He wants every hour and minute accounted for in every aspect of the scope of work involved document.
How s that for a dandy one?
Great document Thanks for making us feel that we are not that cooccoo in our thoughts and perceptions.
Cheers,
You forgot an important one.
A client tells you that they have outsourced the work to India and got back a pile of junk that does not meet requirements. They are now willing to pay ‘whatever’ to get the right solution, but it has to be built using the Indian code set.
Jeffrey, I don’t know but all your points sound a bit, frankly speaking, whiny to me. Any respectable web design company I know makes contracts, and whenever something in those contracts change, money has to be negotiated again. That’s why it’s called contract work. Once you have a good contract signed off by the client, you don’t have to listen to all those ego-babble requests any more.
What you describe above might be true for small 1-guy web design companies who have no one with real business education, but it really shouldn’t happen to world champions of web design like you, should it?
Well, those web kids I know do wear beanie hats, so maybe you ARE that disorganized. (No insult).
21. Client is a childhood friend who assumes that he has special treatment with little to no cost
22. Client has vast ambitions and is never pleased with any deliverables
23. Client has hired yourself and several other people to conduct the same job. Which means that each party is competing to win over the client
24. Client admits that he is own a tight budget promises to pay for the job in short bursts. And, if there are several developers including yourself, he must alternate who is paid each week
25. Client thinks that it is a fair deal to pay you based on the success of the site, using the revenue the site generates on launch as a base
26. The client is actually multiple co-owners of a business who all have contradicting views
27. The client is another web developer who has been hired by an initial client
^ all happened to me :-/
Wow, that’s kinda depressing. I’ve seen too much of this.
So very true - all points are dead on right at pin-pointing these clients. I’m sad to report that at least 3/4 of these I have encountered over 12 years of working w/ web site projects.
have you been sitting in my office and i did not notice you there? my faves are numbers 5 and 16.
great post
That wy I do all of my clientwebsites in PAINT.
[...] [Read the whole list…] [...]
This list is spot-on. I needed a laugh today, and this post did the trick. Nice job as always!
I laughed out LOUD at these! So true!! And though they’re hilarious now (nesting dolls! snort!), I’m quite sure they weren’t funny to you at the time. I am sorry for your pain. But thanks for letting us share the humor of it all now.
If you’d like to read a few more, check out my Top 15 Ways to Offend a Web Designer post on the Web Pro World forum…
http://www.webproworld.com/breakroom-general-any-topic/59291-top-15-ways-offend-web-designer.html
Kelli
So true!
I have had all 20 of these clients.
Excellent article. Also, watch out for clients that can’t settle on a design and demand massive mockups of slight variations. By the time I reached 30 photoshop mockups I was going batty, and they told me they don’t care if it takes 100. That’ll never happen again.
One rule of thumb we’ve adopted, If someone pushes us to give them a ‘ballpark’ of how much their site will cost in our initial phone after we’ve already told them that we need to think this over and create a strategy and a proposal, we usually scale the proposal WAY back, because they almost always end up not being serious clients. Sometimes people push us for a price for their website before even telling us what they want!? In this case I try hard to just get them off the phone…
brent
@
mimoYmima.com
Ms. Jen… I can top your “can we print the web site” story. Early on in my career, I had almost a similar thing happen to me. When I showed the “powers that be” how to print the web site out, they said “No… I mean I want to print the buttons and stuff at the top of the page”. We kept going ’round and ’round until I finally realized TPTB wanted to print the page WITH the browser bars and address window.
Also, how’s this:
“We need an estimate on how long it will take for you to add a new page/section to our web site but we can’t approve anything until we have the estimate.”
“Okay. How big will this new section be and what content will go on it?”
“We don’t know yet. It depends on what your estimate is…”
Chris
Great list. However, that last item used to happen to me before I got wise and started ballparking at the first meeting. I just can’t waste my time anymore.
Thanks! Very funny.
#21 Client asks to make the logo bigger
#22 Client asks to change the size of the site, graphic, logo or any other object and uses the unit of measurement “inches”
#23 Client is a friend, family member or friend of a family member
LOL very funny. I have experienced MANY of these clients!
[...] From Zeldman.com: [...]
#21: Client is a web design company looking to update their site. (true story, happened twice)
this article is FANtastic! i haven’t had all of these happen to me, but quite a few have. Some you left off:
Client sends check. Approves design. Approves coded site. Sends all completed content. Then calls to tell you they’ve changed their mind on the entire look and feel….and then is confused as to why you have to requote and charge more.
Client calls you to tell you they are going to email you. (why?! WHY!!?)
Client is still using IE4.0 and wants to be sure the site works perfectly in that browser specifically.
Client lets you know that everyone in the 50+ person company will be giving input on your designs.
#21 Client’s represents the Hell’s Angels, and invites you to hop on the computer in the corner and build a complete site right there at the get-acquainted meeting.
I would add “Client is of that certain age and temperament which causes him to boast with pride that he has never touched a computer, as computers are for secretaries. Client duly delegates the ‘internet web page project’ (his words) to his secretary, who does not know what a logo is. Client then changes his mind but does not feel obliged to inform the web designer, who only finds out about it through the local gossip chain.”
[...] — idea15 @ 9:29 pm Jeffrey Zeldman has posted an absolutely brilliant list called “20 signs you don’t want that web design project“, filled with true stories of clients from [...]
[...] — idea15 @ 9:29 pm Jeffrey Zeldman has posted an absolutely brilliant list called “20 signs you don’t want that web design project“, filled with true stories of clients from [...]
You basically described modus operandi for any IT-related project of my employer… and I work for the IT-department. Man, I gotta quit!
Client forces you to build a great design for a Microsoft Frontpage site, stating that if it isn’t in Frontpage it’s crap.
[...] Bookmarked a link on Delicious. Jeffrey Zeldman Presents : 20 signs you don’t want that web design project [...]
[...] Jeffrey Zeldman Presents : 20 signs you don’t want that web design project My favorite: "Client begins first meeting by making a big show of telling you that you are the expert. You are in charge, he says: he will defer to you in all things, because you understand the web and he does not. (Trust your uncle Jeffrey: this man will micromanage every hair on the project’s head.)" (tags: web business projectmanagement humor webdesign work management zeldman clients freelance) [...]
Oh this list is great!!! LOL @ #16 “Client tells you he has conducted a usability study with his wife.”
Man do I feel your pain!!!
[...] Now I have had my share of bad clients in this freelance world of web design. It comes with the territory. Which is why I would like to direct you attention to Jeffrey Zeldman’s humorus but OH SO TRUE!! post : 20 signs you don’t want that web design project. enjoy! [...]
Too funny. #7 and #17 seem to be story of web design career so far.
Beware the client who is eager to install you as the “expert”, most likely he expects you to do the thinking for him, from purpose of website right down to sourcing content for the website.
#14 is where you bid, wait four months, then send the first site you did packaged up with a bow made from the invoice. Then in 6-8 weeks, you hit the road as a certified long-haul trucker.
OMG, I’ve been the poor sap in #10 who was ordained as the point person, but then all of my ideas (based on my sound judgment and USABILITY STUDIES) were beaten to a pulp, set on fire and thrown into the river. Oh, hell, who am I kidding — I’ve been a part of all of these scenarios. Gotta love decisions by committee!
Oh my goodness!!! YOU ARE THE MAN! You have listed my nightmare clients to a “tee”!!
I almost want to pass this out to prospective clients as selection criteria. “Do any of these seem to sound tempting?”
Great list! Heres one,
“I want to build a youtube/facebook/myspace/twitter/hulu/social network for Russian nesting dolls so they can make friends when they come to life at midnight”.
“While back-end work is finishing, client rethinks the architecture”…. worth 1000 marks for each designer……….
excellent….
I just started out designing websites for a living (started in March this year) and a lot of these indicators seem awkwardly familiar already. Geez…
Funny though!
#16 sounds like a punchline Letterman would use.
#16 so true
Also run if you are told - my wife has re-done the graphics (Microsoft word image effects applied to your carefully layered photoshop web ready image.)
These are all hilarious, of course.
I love the fact that even the great Jeffrey Zeldman, a giant of our field, has experienced the same indignities as the rest of us.
I hate the fact that even the great Jeffrey Zeldman, a giant of our field, has experienced the same indignities as the rest of us.
P.S. The bit about clients who want to edit out widows is spot on. I wish I had an instant death ray to use on them. Hmm….
[...] Jeffrey Zeldman Presents : 20 signs you don’t want that web design project (tags: design projectmanagement inspiration funny webdesign) [...]
[...] from: Jeffrey Zeldman Presents blog [...]
I went to look up “Russian Nesting Dolls” on Google just to see if they are what I thought they are. I started to get the spinning technicolor pizza wheel in Safari 3.2.1 just on the Google page.
I have a good one too - the client who designed his site himself in FrontPage, complete with a broken ‘Contact Us’ form and his logo image file still at it’s print resolution who wants you to add a Flash splash page, but not touch anything else because he doesn’t want his web site to actually earn him any business.
*That* was an interesting meeting.
[...] Whether you’re doing your own site or hiring somebody…don’t let this be you. [...]
Put a landlord hat on the landlord, and add more psht, ffflpow, and shhewww.
And how ’bout the client, an artist, who had been dragging her feet on putting her portfolio on the web for three years because she *hates* using a computer…but when she was finally convinced, told me she wanted “lots of movement and interactivity” on her site, objects that “spiral in” on her home page, etc. Her budget was a couple of hundred dollars. Oh, yeah, and she wanted to be able to update it herself. This might qualify as a “shame on me” moment, as I assumed this low tech artist would want a simple web site like the ones I had already created for friends of hers.
I have good basic coding skills in html and css, but I don’t use Flash. I hate disappointing people, so I’ve written a “Tips for Creating Your First Website” tutorial for newbies which includes info on how to communicate with your designer about your style, how to prepare your photos for the webmaster, etc., introduced by a section entitled “How NOT to Select a Web Designer,” which starts out “Don’t assume a friend or someone you meet at a party has the skills which are a match for your vision.”
Been there on most of these points. But I’ve adapted the way I work to now avoid most of these dilemmas. When you think about it, websites are quite complex beasts - CMS, e-commerce, security considerations, usability considerations, SEO considerations, accessibility- getting everything right is far from easy.
To get everything right, and appease a demanding client who doesn’t understand nor care about these considerations, you’re on a hiding to nothing much of the time. But I adapted. If I didn’t adapt, I would have quit a number of years ago.
Now I work on a single templated solution I have developed 100% myself. One codebase. It’s a product. So I sell a product now, not so much a service. The functionality of the template is clearly advertised, and it’s modular so clients can very easily add and remove facilities like a blog, or forum, or e-commerce shop. They can pick a design out of a number of designs. It’s not 100% tailored, but they know what they’re getting.
Of course this does not suit every prospective client who enquires, but hey, I sell a product and it’s up to the prospective client to decide if that product would work for their plans or not. I win more than I did when I developed only bespoke sites.
Oh, and as I work on one codebase, I have more free time, which I can devote to that one codebase. All sites are patched automatically whenever there’s an update. And my clients are happy that they get free updates to their website(s), so client retention / referrals are very good. Another yardstick that a templated solution works better (for me, not saying for all developers or all clients).
And finally, because the product (the website template) is set in stone, the focus is not on development, but actually on CONTENT and MARKETING for each client. I tell my clients THEIR content is crucial to the success of their site - so prepare it well. The website is just a container (that of course has to be a robust, smoothly functioning container). I give them the CMS tools so they can update content as and when. But primarily I coach them to focus on content. Over 5 years ago, when I was coding furiously inventing the same wheel over and over, the focus was almost exclusively on development. And after an exhausting development phase (often for the client as much as myself), a site would launch and flounder. I didn’t have the energy or inclination to even consider post-launch of a site with so much energy spent on development. My mistake.
A website can go through several development cycles, and be technically “perfect” - yet you see the lousy content - no contact information, no reassuring words offering good service, money back guarantees, no testimonials, horrible product images, spelling mistakes, terrible grammar, and so on and so on. Most of my job these days is taken up coaching clients to write compelling and interesting content, be SEO aware, (clean) online marketing tricks, etc. The biggest battle, even after you work your way through the development cycles, is educating clients about their content. I’ve decided to skip that first step and concentrate a lot more on the second.
You should allow people to click on those which they’ve run across and then order by that amount. It would be interesting to see imho.
I really enjoyed it. Great read! You are absolutely right, every single thing is true.
Had to login anonymously to cosign this post. I’ve encountered each of these characters at least once over the past 6 years (well maybe not the Russian doll folks) . Seems that most of them were encountered this year alone. Thankfully, I live and learn quickly. I’ve turned away more work in the past 2 years than ever. Starting out you tend to be more “flexible” with clients. They love the flexibility, you love the work - this is until you realize that you’re being worked to death. We select our service clients very wisely (i.e. people that have their sh!t together). My company has a checklist of items that all feasible projects are expected to have.
I’d like to add:
21. Client that want you to build the next with the potential of making a ‘killing’ once it’s takes off. There are no contracts and you foot the initial development costs; oh and there’s a tight timeframe (yesterday). And they think that you should be leaping for joy at the prospect of working for free with little possibility of getting ROI. (true story)
22. Clients that want a high-end, custom designed website AND an online store … on a $350 budget (because one of their friends told the that you can get a website + hosting + shopping cart for less than $400 ).
23. Clients that want you to design their website, but they haven’t started writing the content.
24. Clients that have not drafted a business & marketing plan, but would like to launch a major online company in 30 days or less and expect the web designer or developer to provide business consultation services as well.
25. Clients that hand you a loose leaf sheet of notebook paper or napkin with a half azzed outline of what they’d like on the site. Then say “is this enough to get you started?”
And I pulled those from the archives. I won’t even discuss the latest cast of characters.
#17 is so common and almost never mentioned in lists like this.
Its worse when you’re hired in a web/design/programming role only to turn into a web/programming/design teacher.
This is why I quit designing and coding websites 7 years ago.
That’s why i say NO to more people these days than i used to. One sniff of a wrong’un and I treble the fee. IF they still agree to it, then I probably think that the pain and angst is worth the extra money.
I wanted to pull my hair out after reading each and every one of these. And note that this list is BY NO MEANS limited to freelance or agency work. If you’re an in-house web developer (my case), you’re just as likely to get the same crap from the project’s stakeholders (as well as random people who pop out of the woodwork, of course). Yipes.
#16 is true! My last work, I had done all right, step by step with the client’s approval when suddenly he mails me and says:
-Oh, my wife didn’t like this. Please change.
Oh, bad wife.
I’m curious to know how you might go about gracefully turning down a project when one of these red flags is raised (obviously where you have not yet commenced work).
#21 - Client wonders why he can’t click on the links in the jgp comps that you just sent him.
#22 - Client has been looking at screen shots from the original comps for the last 5 meetings instead of following the link to the dev environment that you sent 5 meetings ago; is irate that no progress has been made; demands results.
Head meet wall.
23) Client who is paying a top graphic design company to completely redo brand, but maintains that we, developing the website, do not need signed off brand guidelines (or even draft band guidelines) because this has “nothing to do with the website”. Client then goes in huff when we show designs that are nothing like the work being done by graphic design company, that we have never seen before in our lives.
24) Client gives design signoff, then a week before phase 1 of the site goes live we get abusive email from her brother (a director) saying that they have been “conned” and from her dad (another director) claiming that this is the “first time” they have seen the site and it “looks like it was made by a ten year old” and they want, bizarrely, “a champagne glass filling up (i.e. tacky flash animation). At no point have we spoken to either of these people before. Client says they are not paying. We remind client, referring to emails, that they a) signed off the design and b) this isn’t the finished site. We then have to redesign site to “prove” we can deliver. 3 days of my life i will never get back.
25) Client for whom it takes 20 minutes to explain the concept of a template.
26) Client who will not give design signoff because “we’re paying you to do the design”
27) Client who demands that site site function exactly like the powerpoint slides he sent over, despite our concern that at 100 pages with some only containing one image or a sentence, it many be a teensy bit troublesome to navigate. After rejecting our proposed navigation rethink, and demanding that we add a prev / next link to make the site more powerpoint-esque, his boss then sends us an email saying they are disappointed with the site because it is difficult to navigate and it looks like we’ve “just copied the structure of the files we sent over”.
28) Client who knows how much work in involved is “just” moving the navigation about.
29) Client who thinks that once a design is signed off, it is a matter of waving a wand over it to bring the site, complete with content, magically into existence.
I’d be happy to take some of those difficult clients off your hands.
I forgot that one. And its brother: Client brings heavily marked up printouts of Design Round 1 to a meeting where client is supposed to approve Design Round 3.
(Alternately, Client brings heavily marked up Wireframes 2.0 to a meeting where he is supposed to review Design Round 1, which is based on Wireframes 3.0, which he approved.)
You actually wouldn’t be happy.
Mmm, oh yeah!
Oh, baby!
Hurrah for my non-client-facing developer job!
Sidenote, loads of comments to this post!!
#17….
That is like 99% of the small business owners in the United States. The only way I’ve ever been able to combat it is with the change request process part of my standard contract.
Then when they start to micromanage everything the price starts skyrocketing making it worth my while. Not to mention when you ask someone to fill out the appropriate change request forms, and then call for clarification and give them the revised estimate, they generally either a) won’t bother with it or b) decide “their guy” can do it after the site launches.
[...] : http://www.zeldman.com/2008/12/04/20-signs-you-dont-want-that-web-design-project/ Filed in Business, Computer « Clone2Go Video Converter Free Version [...]
Some smaller business clients (Mom and Pop type shops who want to do business on the Internet) might refer to you as the “computer guy”. Not a good sign.
My day has been made whole again. Cheers.