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	<title>Comments on: Redesign template finals</title>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey Zeldman</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2009/05/20/redesign-template-finals/#comment-42745</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey Zeldman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 12:58:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/?p=1127#comment-42745</guid>
		<description>@Lauri Mueller:

You are spot-on in the inconsistencies you point out. But these same inconsistencies will be found in the current design—the one you&#039;re reading right now. This design has been up since 2004, and no one has reported being confused as to what&#039;s a link and what&#039;s not.

Lack of reports doesn&#039;t mean no one was ever confused, but if confusion over what is and isn&#039;t a link was a real problem on this design, I surely would have heard about it over the past five years.

The fact that I haven&#039;t heard a peep suggests it&#039;s not a major problem for the people who read this site.

Whether this exact same system regarding what gets underlined and what doesn&#039;t will work as well in the orange design remains to be seen. 

Similar inconsistencies—the kind I would never have stood for five years ago—may be found in the designs of &lt;cite&gt;A List Apart&lt;/cite&gt; and AIGA, and they don&#039;t seem to bother anyone there, either.

I&#039;m thinking—as your own line of discussion suggests—that absolute consistency is a requirement when designing a mass market site such as Yahoo, but the rules may be relaxed a bit when designing for a much smaller and more sophisticated audience.

Then again, you were confused about the ALA subhead links. I&#039;m thinking perhaps in the orange design I should avoid making subheads linkable, period. (Keep the links in the body, where they&#039;ll be underlined by default.)

Thanks for the honest and logical feedback.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Lauri Mueller:</p>
<p>You are spot-on in the inconsistencies you point out. But these same inconsistencies will be found in the current design—the one you&#8217;re reading right now. This design has been up since 2004, and no one has reported being confused as to what&#8217;s a link and what&#8217;s not.</p>
<p>Lack of reports doesn&#8217;t mean no one was ever confused, but if confusion over what is and isn&#8217;t a link was a real problem on this design, I surely would have heard about it over the past five years.</p>
<p>The fact that I haven&#8217;t heard a peep suggests it&#8217;s not a major problem for the people who read this site.</p>
<p>Whether this exact same system regarding what gets underlined and what doesn&#8217;t will work as well in the orange design remains to be seen. </p>
<p>Similar inconsistencies—the kind I would never have stood for five years ago—may be found in the designs of <cite>A List Apart</cite> and AIGA, and they don&#8217;t seem to bother anyone there, either.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m thinking—as your own line of discussion suggests—that absolute consistency is a requirement when designing a mass market site such as Yahoo, but the rules may be relaxed a bit when designing for a much smaller and more sophisticated audience.</p>
<p>Then again, you were confused about the ALA subhead links. I&#8217;m thinking perhaps in the orange design I should avoid making subheads linkable, period. (Keep the links in the body, where they&#8217;ll be underlined by default.)</p>
<p>Thanks for the honest and logical feedback.</p>
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		<title>By: Lauri Mueller</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2009/05/20/redesign-template-finals/#comment-42731</link>
		<dc:creator>Lauri Mueller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 17:24:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/?p=1127#comment-42731</guid>
		<description>Respectfully, I understand the design aspect but I didn&#039;t realize the orange subheads were links until I accidentally moused over them because I was accustomed to them being underlined in that column. Also, with the logic you stated, why aren&#039;t they underlined in the black footer?? Design-wise, I&#039;d hate to see them underlined there but if you justify underlining inline links with color-blindness in one area, how can you not in another? Sorry to bust your chops but it&#039;s kind of like having a chance to debate with Yoda, you know? :) If you&#039;re tired of justifying your choice, I&#039;ll understand if you don&#039;t answer.

To be fair, when I&#039;ve designed websites I&#039;ve also come up with reasons to break consistency because design-wise it didn&#039;t look good to me. Plus, it&#039;s your personal site and one mostly visited by web designers so they don&#039;t need as much help figuring things out as the average person. It&#039;s all good (even if the orange and black makes me flash back to unpleasant days working on a version of the Geek Squad website, lol). You&#039;re brave to open this up for discussion!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Respectfully, I understand the design aspect but I didn&#8217;t realize the orange subheads were links until I accidentally moused over them because I was accustomed to them being underlined in that column. Also, with the logic you stated, why aren&#8217;t they underlined in the black footer?? Design-wise, I&#8217;d hate to see them underlined there but if you justify underlining inline links with color-blindness in one area, how can you not in another? Sorry to bust your chops but it&#8217;s kind of like having a chance to debate with Yoda, you know? :) If you&#8217;re tired of justifying your choice, I&#8217;ll understand if you don&#8217;t answer.</p>
<p>To be fair, when I&#8217;ve designed websites I&#8217;ve also come up with reasons to break consistency because design-wise it didn&#8217;t look good to me. Plus, it&#8217;s your personal site and one mostly visited by web designers so they don&#8217;t need as much help figuring things out as the average person. It&#8217;s all good (even if the orange and black makes me flash back to unpleasant days working on a version of the Geek Squad website, lol). You&#8217;re brave to open this up for discussion!</p>
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		<title>By: Justin Bell</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2009/05/20/redesign-template-finals/#comment-42719</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Bell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 05:54:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/?p=1127#comment-42719</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t like it at first, but I do like these latest versions. An improvement over the current design, to me, as much as I like it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t like it at first, but I do like these latest versions. An improvement over the current design, to me, as much as I like it.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Wallace</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2009/05/20/redesign-template-finals/#comment-42706</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Wallace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 May 2009 16:27:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/?p=1127#comment-42706</guid>
		<description>@Zeldman Aw come on, don&#039;t you think the style switcher is awfully well-hidden? I mean, I only knew about it because I read the post explaining the addition of it. Even then after you told me where it was, it took me some time to even find it (had to read the entire footer text). Now I am all for maintaining the brand and making sure it doesn&#039;t pull attention from the focus of the site, but you wouldn&#039;t put a &#039;Skip to Content&#039; link in the footer or a &#039;Skip to Navigation&#039; link after the navigation? So why place a &#039;switch the god-awful background color&#039; link at the very end of the page?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Zeldman Aw come on, don&#8217;t you think the style switcher is awfully well-hidden? I mean, I only knew about it because I read the post explaining the addition of it. Even then after you told me where it was, it took me some time to even find it (had to read the entire footer text). Now I am all for maintaining the brand and making sure it doesn&#8217;t pull attention from the focus of the site, but you wouldn&#8217;t put a &#8216;Skip to Content&#8217; link in the footer or a &#8216;Skip to Navigation&#8217; link after the navigation? So why place a &#8217;switch the god-awful background color&#8217; link at the very end of the page?</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2009/05/20/redesign-template-finals/#comment-42699</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 May 2009 09:27:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/?p=1127#comment-42699</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m going to miss this current design, however bravo on the font sizes with the new one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m going to miss this current design, however bravo on the font sizes with the new one.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil Stewart-Jones</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2009/05/20/redesign-template-finals/#comment-42687</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Stewart-Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 May 2009 23:44:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/?p=1127#comment-42687</guid>
		<description>Looking good.  Minor detail, but the wording in some of the ads in &lt;em&gt;The Deck&lt;/em&gt; get pretty close to the frame now.  It&#039;s currently noticeable in one of the Emma ads and the 4by6.com ad.  This is on Mac, Firefox 3.0.10 anyway.  The blockquote looks particularly tasty on the Mac.. and it reminds me of &quot;Click Clack Moo: Cows That Type.&quot;

I get the feeling that there&#039;s a specific, possibly illogical and/or historical meaning attached to the &quot;Previous Reports&quot; button.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looking good.  Minor detail, but the wording in some of the ads in <em>The Deck</em> get pretty close to the frame now.  It&#8217;s currently noticeable in one of the Emma ads and the 4by6.com ad.  This is on Mac, Firefox 3.0.10 anyway.  The blockquote looks particularly tasty on the Mac.. and it reminds me of &#8220;Click Clack Moo: Cows That Type.&#8221;</p>
<p>I get the feeling that there&#8217;s a specific, possibly illogical and/or historical meaning attached to the &#8220;Previous Reports&#8221; button.</p>
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		<title>By: Lazy KB</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2009/05/20/redesign-template-finals/#comment-42650</link>
		<dc:creator>Lazy KB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 May 2009 05:22:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/?p=1127#comment-42650</guid>
		<description>To me, the redesign looks like a big step backward.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To me, the redesign looks like a big step backward.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Kozakewich</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2009/05/20/redesign-template-finals/#comment-42647</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Kozakewich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 May 2009 00:20:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/?p=1127#comment-42647</guid>
		<description>The orange really does grow on you, after you visit a few times. I think it&#039;s because it blends well with the well-designed nature of the rest of the site. Quite simply, any colour can look good with good design, and the best colours can look strange or ugly if the design is amateur.
You pull it off amazingly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The orange really does grow on you, after you visit a few times. I think it&#8217;s because it blends well with the well-designed nature of the rest of the site. Quite simply, any colour can look good with good design, and the best colours can look strange or ugly if the design is amateur.<br />
You pull it off amazingly.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey Zeldman</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2009/05/20/redesign-template-finals/#comment-42639</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey Zeldman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 19:08:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/?p=1127#comment-42639</guid>
		<description>@Lauri Mueller:

All links are orange, but not everyone can see color the same way, so I use underlining for body links, to help people with certain kinds of colorblindness (and to make the &quot;linkness&quot; more obvious even for non-colorblind folks).

I don&#039;t use underlines on the subheads because it would be hideous; I don&#039;t use them in the sidebar because visual context makes it unnecessary. Make sense?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Lauri Mueller:</p>
<p>All links are orange, but not everyone can see color the same way, so I use underlining for body links, to help people with certain kinds of colorblindness (and to make the &#8220;linkness&#8221; more obvious even for non-colorblind folks).</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t use underlines on the subheads because it would be hideous; I don&#8217;t use them in the sidebar because visual context makes it unnecessary. Make sense?</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey Zeldman</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2009/05/20/redesign-template-finals/#comment-42638</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey Zeldman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 19:05:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/?p=1127#comment-42638</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
I’m not a fan of the crazy orange background 
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

@Chris Wallace, now that I have a style switcher in place and you know where it is, why do you need to complain about the orange? You&#039;ll never see the orange. You&#039;ll always see the off-white. The footer switch sets a cookie to remember your preference.

&lt;blockquote&gt;
might you be able to offer a background switch button (set cookie to remember selection for future visits) at the top of the page instead of the tiny little footer line that will be missed by 99% of the users who have trouble with the orange?
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I buried the switch because the orange is part of the brand and the design. Sticking the style switch at the top of the page would call attention to it and make it appear that the two designs are equivalent in value. They&#039;re not. Sticking the switch at the top would encourage people to flick it, and many would choose off-white simply because it&#039;s more familiar to them. I&#039;d rather that most people experience the page through the intended design.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
I’m not a fan of the crazy orange background
</p></blockquote>
<p>@Chris Wallace, now that I have a style switcher in place and you know where it is, why do you need to complain about the orange? You&#8217;ll never see the orange. You&#8217;ll always see the off-white. The footer switch sets a cookie to remember your preference.</p>
<blockquote><p>
might you be able to offer a background switch button (set cookie to remember selection for future visits) at the top of the page instead of the tiny little footer line that will be missed by 99% of the users who have trouble with the orange?
</p></blockquote>
<p>I buried the switch because the orange is part of the brand and the design. Sticking the style switch at the top of the page would call attention to it and make it appear that the two designs are equivalent in value. They&#8217;re not. Sticking the switch at the top would encourage people to flick it, and many would choose off-white simply because it&#8217;s more familiar to them. I&#8217;d rather that most people experience the page through the intended design.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey Zeldman</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2009/05/20/redesign-template-finals/#comment-42637</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey Zeldman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 19:02:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/?p=1127#comment-42637</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.zeldman.com/2009/05/22/floats-clears-and-color-flashes/comment-page-1/#comment-42634&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Fixed orange flash&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.zeldman.com/2009/05/22/floats-clears-and-color-flashes/comment-page-1/#comment-42634" rel="nofollow">Fixed orange flash</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Wallace</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2009/05/20/redesign-template-finals/#comment-42632</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Wallace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 18:38:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/?p=1127#comment-42632</guid>
		<description>Much respect to you as the master of web standards, but in terms of visual design, I&#039;m not a fan of the crazy orange background (especially when it takes up 75% of my 23&quot; widescreen). Once you&#039;ve gotten to the place where you currently are, I would assume you can do whatever you want. People aren&#039;t visiting this site to see your crazy-sick designs anyway.

One suggestion though, might you be able to offer a background switch button (set cookie to remember selection for future visits) at the top of the page instead of the tiny little footer line that will be missed by 99% of the users who have trouble with the orange?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Much respect to you as the master of web standards, but in terms of visual design, I&#8217;m not a fan of the crazy orange background (especially when it takes up 75% of my 23&#8243; widescreen). Once you&#8217;ve gotten to the place where you currently are, I would assume you can do whatever you want. People aren&#8217;t visiting this site to see your crazy-sick designs anyway.</p>
<p>One suggestion though, might you be able to offer a background switch button (set cookie to remember selection for future visits) at the top of the page instead of the tiny little footer line that will be missed by 99% of the users who have trouble with the orange?</p>
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		<title>By: Lauri Mueller</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2009/05/20/redesign-template-finals/#comment-42623</link>
		<dc:creator>Lauri Mueller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 18:04:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/?p=1127#comment-42623</guid>
		<description>I like the subhead size better now! Another note: Is it ok that some links are underlined (the ones in lists) and some aren&#039;t? I would say that it should be consistent and that orange text should be the link indication.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the subhead size better now! Another note: Is it ok that some links are underlined (the ones in lists) and some aren&#8217;t? I would say that it should be consistent and that orange text should be the link indication.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey Zeldman Presents : Floats, clears, and color flashes</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2009/05/20/redesign-template-finals/#comment-42622</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey Zeldman Presents : Floats, clears, and color flashes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 18:01:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/?p=1127#comment-42622</guid>
		<description>[...] viewing this site&#8217;s redesign in progress, Peter Petrus wrote:  [Y]ou’re using footer to clear floats (content + sidebar). This [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] viewing this site&#8217;s redesign in progress, Peter Petrus wrote:  [Y]ou’re using footer to clear floats (content + sidebar). This [...]</p>
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		<title>By: jeffgtr</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2009/05/20/redesign-template-finals/#comment-42604</link>
		<dc:creator>jeffgtr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 20:00:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/?p=1127#comment-42604</guid>
		<description>The color scheme is really growing on me and I love the typography. The only thing that bothers me, and I&#039;m being terribly nitpicky. The corners on the headers in the sidebar (The Deck, Job Board, etc) are just a little to rounded.

No bigee, it&#039;s one of those things I have to watch with myself  so I&#039;ve developed a little bit of a naggy neurosis when it comes to corners.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The color scheme is really growing on me and I love the typography. The only thing that bothers me, and I&#8217;m being terribly nitpicky. The corners on the headers in the sidebar (The Deck, Job Board, etc) are just a little to rounded.</p>
<p>No bigee, it&#8217;s one of those things I have to watch with myself  so I&#8217;ve developed a little bit of a naggy neurosis when it comes to corners.</p>
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