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	<title>Comments on: Real type on the web?</title>
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	<description>Web design news and insights since 1995</description>
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		<title>By: ebilodeau's typography Bookmarks on Delicious</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2008/11/13/real-type-on-the-web/#comment-48931</link>
		<dc:creator>ebilodeau's typography Bookmarks on Delicious</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 15:47:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/?p=422#comment-48931</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] Real type on the web? SAVE [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] Real type on the web? SAVE [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--></p>
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		<title>By: redarrow: A New Series: sIFR Explained</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2008/11/13/real-type-on-the-web/#comment-42244</link>
		<dc:creator>redarrow: A New Series: sIFR Explained</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2009 10:46:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/?p=422#comment-42244</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] this debate going on recently amongst web designers and developers on embedding fonts (check out Zeldman&#8217;s blog entry on talk of new, competing specifications), I thought now would be a great time to dive in a little deeper to a technology that exists today [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] this debate going on recently amongst web designers and developers on embedding fonts (check out Zeldman&#8217;s blog entry on talk of new, competing specifications), I thought now would be a great time to dive in a little deeper to a technology that exists today [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--></p>
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		<title>By: Samantha Warren's Web Design Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2008/11/13/real-type-on-the-web/#comment-41036</link>
		<dc:creator>Samantha Warren's Web Design Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2009 12:10:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/?p=422#comment-41036</guid>
		<description>[...] One of the major challenges about purposing a SXSW panel is that it happens about 6 months in advance of the conference, so plenty of interesting stuff can happen regarding a topic in the meantime, and this year&#8230; typography has been a pretty hot topic. If web typography had ears, they would be burning, because everyone has been talking about it&#8230;here is a little taste of the W3 minutes from their October meeting [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] One of the major challenges about purposing a SXSW panel is that it happens about 6 months in advance of the conference, so plenty of interesting stuff can happen regarding a topic in the meantime, and this year&#8230; typography has been a pretty hot topic. If web typography had ears, they would be burning, because everyone has been talking about it&#8230;here is a little taste of the W3 minutes from their October meeting [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The week in type: die neue &#124; Web Design Abyss</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2008/11/13/real-type-on-the-web/#comment-40162</link>
		<dc:creator>The week in type: die neue &#124; Web Design Abyss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Dec 2008 23:09:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/?p=422#comment-40162</guid>
		<description>[...] Real type on the web 2 Colors Design New type: Late November from P22 Re-branding Polaroid Irish Typewriter Keyboards Font sightings—the next generation Web fonts: the death of type&#160;foundries? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Real type on the web 2 Colors Design New type: Late November from P22 Re-branding Polaroid Irish Typewriter Keyboards Font sightings—the next generation Web fonts: the death of type&nbsp;foundries? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: WMC &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The week in type: die neue</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2008/11/13/real-type-on-the-web/#comment-40125</link>
		<dc:creator>WMC &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The week in type: die neue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Dec 2008 07:45:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/?p=422#comment-40125</guid>
		<description>[...] Real type on the web 2 Colors Design New type: Late November from P22 Re-branding Polaroid Irish Typewriter Keyboards Font sightings—the next generation Web fonts: the death of type&#160;foundries? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Real type on the web 2 Colors Design New type: Late November from P22 Re-branding Polaroid Irish Typewriter Keyboards Font sightings—the next generation Web fonts: the death of type&nbsp;foundries? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Appellations&#124;/Appellare &#187; The week in type: die neue</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2008/11/13/real-type-on-the-web/#comment-40046</link>
		<dc:creator>Appellations&#124;/Appellare &#187; The week in type: die neue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Dec 2008 23:57:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/?p=422#comment-40046</guid>
		<description>[...] Real type on the web 2 Colors Design New type: Late November from P22 Re-branding Polaroid Irish Typewriter Keyboards [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Real type on the web 2 Colors Design New type: Late November from P22 Re-branding Polaroid Irish Typewriter Keyboards [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Design &#38; Art Direction - The week in type: die neue</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2008/11/13/real-type-on-the-web/#comment-39818</link>
		<dc:creator>Design &#38; Art Direction - The week in type: die neue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 12:18:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/?p=422#comment-39818</guid>
		<description>[...] Real type on the web 2 Colors Design New type: Late November from P22 Re-branding Polaroid Irish Typewriter Keyboards Font sightings—the next generation Web fonts: the death of type foundries? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Real type on the web 2 Colors Design New type: Late November from P22 Re-branding Polaroid Irish Typewriter Keyboards Font sightings—the next generation Web fonts: the death of type foundries? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: type4screen &#187; Blog Archive &#187; W3C Fonts working group</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2008/11/13/real-type-on-the-web/#comment-39757</link>
		<dc:creator>type4screen &#187; Blog Archive &#187; W3C Fonts working group</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 21:38:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/?p=422#comment-39757</guid>
		<description>[...] The debate around the use of fonts in web design is once again emerging with vigour. A proposal for a fonts working group is now under discussion at the W3C. You can read Jeffrey Zeldman&#8217;s account of the meeting here. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The debate around the use of fonts in web design is once again emerging with vigour. A proposal for a fonts working group is now under discussion at the W3C. You can read Jeffrey Zeldman&#8217;s account of the meeting here. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Fink</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2008/11/13/real-type-on-the-web/#comment-39755</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Fink</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 18:28:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/?p=422#comment-39755</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been tracking this issue closely for some time. (See previous links to John Allsop&#039;s Web Direction&#039;s blog.) 
The debate on Web Fonts is a perfect little storm where several hot-button issues intersect, which makes it especially interesting.
As the transcript from the W3C working group shows, there are significant legal issues involved.
And it solved for me, at least, the mystery as to why the Opera &quot;dog&quot; hasn&#039;t yet barked by implementing direct linking to TTF files, despite Lie&#039;s advocacy.
As his little story suggests, he&#039;d rather not end up in the hoosegow, and I can&#039;t say I blame him. Greatly anticipating Opera 10 to see the next chapter.
I&#039;ve done  lot of reading of the applicable case law (court decisions and summaries) and, frankly, it&#039;s difficult to envision a solution that does not strongly take copyright enforcement into account.
[Note: Allsop keeps pissing me off (yeah, John) by cherry-picking legal precedent and harping on the granddaddy of contributory infringement cases - the US Supreme Court&#039;s Sony decision. But it&#039;s of dubious relevance here, and there has been lots of cases very relevant since then.]
Despite assurances that the final solution will not involve DRM, there is a serious question as to whether anything can be done to avoid it.
(And, as always, it depends on how you define a hot-button buzzword like DRM. Is EOT DRM?)
When it comes to font-linking, the decision may have already been made by court precedent. There may already be an obligation for the browser to implement some form of check for licensed vs unlicensed use. Apple&#039;s decision to ignore the embedding bit very well might not stand a serious challenge.
It&#039;s a pickle.
Lastly, Bert Bos has published a nice roundup of the issues - as seen from his perspective:
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.w3.org/Fonts/Misc/eot-report-2008&quot; title=&quot;Bert Bos&#039;s Summary Of Font Linking Issues&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Bos&#039;s Summary&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been tracking this issue closely for some time. (See previous links to John Allsop&#8217;s Web Direction&#8217;s blog.)<br />
The debate on Web Fonts is a perfect little storm where several hot-button issues intersect, which makes it especially interesting.<br />
As the transcript from the W3C working group shows, there are significant legal issues involved.<br />
And it solved for me, at least, the mystery as to why the Opera &#8220;dog&#8221; hasn&#8217;t yet barked by implementing direct linking to TTF files, despite Lie&#8217;s advocacy.<br />
As his little story suggests, he&#8217;d rather not end up in the hoosegow, and I can&#8217;t say I blame him. Greatly anticipating Opera 10 to see the next chapter.<br />
I&#8217;ve done  lot of reading of the applicable case law (court decisions and summaries) and, frankly, it&#8217;s difficult to envision a solution that does not strongly take copyright enforcement into account.<br />
[Note: Allsop keeps pissing me off (yeah, John) by cherry-picking legal precedent and harping on the granddaddy of contributory infringement cases - the US Supreme Court's Sony decision. But it's of dubious relevance here, and there has been lots of cases very relevant since then.]<br />
Despite assurances that the final solution will not involve DRM, there is a serious question as to whether anything can be done to avoid it.<br />
(And, as always, it depends on how you define a hot-button buzzword like DRM. Is EOT DRM?)<br />
When it comes to font-linking, the decision may have already been made by court precedent. There may already be an obligation for the browser to implement some form of check for licensed vs unlicensed use. Apple&#8217;s decision to ignore the embedding bit very well might not stand a serious challenge.<br />
It&#8217;s a pickle.<br />
Lastly, Bert Bos has published a nice roundup of the issues &#8211; as seen from his perspective:<br />
<a href="http://www.w3.org/Fonts/Misc/eot-report-2008" title="Bert Bos's Summary Of Font Linking Issues" rel="nofollow">Bos&#8217;s Summary</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey Zeldman</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2008/11/13/real-type-on-the-web/#comment-39616</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey Zeldman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 18:48:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/?p=422#comment-39616</guid>
		<description>Remiel: Thanks for clarifying. And you aren&#039;t just clowning around. The dread word &quot;micropayments&quot; has certainly surfaced in these discussions. But as my response indicates, it ain&#039;t right, and it wouldn&#039;t be practical. 

By contrast, one-time payments (as part of a license when you buy a font), granting you the ability to embed that font in a site, have potential. Sure, some people will cheat (just like some people steal photos). But others will pay, if the fee is reasonable and the terms are clear. 

Nobody thought people would pay to download music until Apple came up with iTunes. Maybe we need Apple to get involved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Remiel: Thanks for clarifying. And you aren&#8217;t just clowning around. The dread word &#8220;micropayments&#8221; has certainly surfaced in these discussions. But as my response indicates, it ain&#8217;t right, and it wouldn&#8217;t be practical. </p>
<p>By contrast, one-time payments (as part of a license when you buy a font), granting you the ability to embed that font in a site, have potential. Sure, some people will cheat (just like some people steal photos). But others will pay, if the fee is reasonable and the terms are clear. </p>
<p>Nobody thought people would pay to download music until Apple came up with iTunes. Maybe we need Apple to get involved.</p>
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		<title>By: Remiel</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2008/11/13/real-type-on-the-web/#comment-39607</link>
		<dc:creator>Remiel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 17:12:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/?p=422#comment-39607</guid>
		<description>Jeffrey Zeldman:

I&#039;m just being a clown and not adding to the discussion. Well, actually, I&#039;m making fun of the inevitable &quot;let&#039;s use micropayments&quot; suggestions that will emerge if this issue becomes a mainstream(ish) debate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeffrey Zeldman:</p>
<p>I&#8217;m just being a clown and not adding to the discussion. Well, actually, I&#8217;m making fun of the inevitable &#8220;let&#8217;s use micropayments&#8221; suggestions that will emerge if this issue becomes a mainstream(ish) debate.</p>
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		<title>By: The week in type: die&#160;neue &#124; i love typography, the typography and fonts blog</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2008/11/13/real-type-on-the-web/#comment-39603</link>
		<dc:creator>The week in type: die&#160;neue &#124; i love typography, the typography and fonts blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 20:52:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/?p=422#comment-39603</guid>
		<description>[...] Real type on the web 2 Colors Design New type: Late November from P22 Re-branding Polaroid Irish Typewriter Keyboards Font sightings—the next generation Web fonts: the death of type&#160;foundries? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Real type on the web 2 Colors Design New type: Late November from P22 Re-branding Polaroid Irish Typewriter Keyboards Font sightings—the next generation Web fonts: the death of type&nbsp;foundries? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2008/11/13/real-type-on-the-web/#comment-39602</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 18:34:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/?p=422#comment-39602</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve got to say that I&#039;m with Matt W. on this. Perfect digital copies are an unavoidable part of our world. Font foundries are no exception, and like everyone else, they will have to toughen up and adjust their business model.

Right now, the font foundries are controlling the pace of the development of web fonts, but they&#039;re going too slow. They should be proactive and create a format that meets everyone&#039;s needs. They could band together and release a large pack of free, open-sourced web fonts, which would at the very least satiate most web developers and buy more time. Anything besides dragging their feet would probably work.

If the font foundries don&#039;t jump in here and identify a middle road that works for everyone, then consumers and developers are going to eventually pick a solution, and it&#039;s going to be a solution that favors consumers and developers and almost definitely will either stomp all over the foundries&#039; licenses or take the foundries out of the equation completely, devastating their profits.

Step up, foundries! Musicians can avoid labels and promote online, journalists can avoid newspapers and publish online, and you&#039;ll be next if you don&#039;t step up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve got to say that I&#8217;m with Matt W. on this. Perfect digital copies are an unavoidable part of our world. Font foundries are no exception, and like everyone else, they will have to toughen up and adjust their business model.</p>
<p>Right now, the font foundries are controlling the pace of the development of web fonts, but they&#8217;re going too slow. They should be proactive and create a format that meets everyone&#8217;s needs. They could band together and release a large pack of free, open-sourced web fonts, which would at the very least satiate most web developers and buy more time. Anything besides dragging their feet would probably work.</p>
<p>If the font foundries don&#8217;t jump in here and identify a middle road that works for everyone, then consumers and developers are going to eventually pick a solution, and it&#8217;s going to be a solution that favors consumers and developers and almost definitely will either stomp all over the foundries&#8217; licenses or take the foundries out of the equation completely, devastating their profits.</p>
<p>Step up, foundries! Musicians can avoid labels and promote online, journalists can avoid newspapers and publish online, and you&#8217;ll be next if you don&#8217;t step up.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey Zeldman</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2008/11/13/real-type-on-the-web/#comment-39578</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey Zeldman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 18:05:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/?p=422#comment-39578</guid>
		<description>Philip:

You&#039;ve minded me that I was peeved when OS X came with six weights of Helvetica Neue, since I already owned every weight of Helvetica Neue, and the system couldn&#039;t run two sets of the same font. Installing OS X on a Classic machine immediately created this font management problem for me—at a time when early OS X had no font management to offer, and the font management tools I&#039;d used for years weren&#039;t compatible with OS X. For designers, it was a lose-lose.

I understand now that Apple was widening its appeal beyond its existing market of graphic designers (nearly all of whom, like me, already owned Helvetica Neue) and bringing Helvetica Neue to consumers. 

Off-topic, of course, but your comment brought the experience back to me with a Proustian rush.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Philip:</p>
<p>You&#8217;ve minded me that I was peeved when OS X came with six weights of Helvetica Neue, since I already owned every weight of Helvetica Neue, and the system couldn&#8217;t run two sets of the same font. Installing OS X on a Classic machine immediately created this font management problem for me—at a time when early OS X had no font management to offer, and the font management tools I&#8217;d used for years weren&#8217;t compatible with OS X. For designers, it was a lose-lose.</p>
<p>I understand now that Apple was widening its appeal beyond its existing market of graphic designers (nearly all of whom, like me, already owned Helvetica Neue) and bringing Helvetica Neue to consumers. </p>
<p>Off-topic, of course, but your comment brought the experience back to me with a Proustian rush.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Johnson</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2008/11/13/real-type-on-the-web/#comment-39577</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 15:20:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/?p=422#comment-39577</guid>
		<description>Greg Bulmash,
As a user of the first generation iPhone I understand the pain of large - in terms of file size - web pages. Screen width is not an issue, but bandwidth is, unless I&#039;m connected through WiFi. 

However, I don&#039;t think the answer is to keep all pages at ~50kb. For users that are on desktop or laptop machines, they should get the richest experience we can provide in terms of photography, video and interface enhancements via scripts. For users on dialup, or using cell phones, or whatever, we should provide them with either a mobile version of our site (if traffic patterns warrant it) or at least provide a mobile ready gateway to our RSS feeds. 

The beauty of having all these database driven websites is the ability to format our content for different audiences on different software. We should use it rather than handicap ourselves to the lowest common denominator.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg Bulmash,<br />
As a user of the first generation iPhone I understand the pain of large &#8211; in terms of file size &#8211; web pages. Screen width is not an issue, but bandwidth is, unless I&#8217;m connected through WiFi. </p>
<p>However, I don&#8217;t think the answer is to keep all pages at ~50kb. For users that are on desktop or laptop machines, they should get the richest experience we can provide in terms of photography, video and interface enhancements via scripts. For users on dialup, or using cell phones, or whatever, we should provide them with either a mobile version of our site (if traffic patterns warrant it) or at least provide a mobile ready gateway to our RSS feeds. </p>
<p>The beauty of having all these database driven websites is the ability to format our content for different audiences on different software. We should use it rather than handicap ourselves to the lowest common denominator.</p>
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