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	<title>Comments on: Eight points for better e-mail relationships</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.zeldman.com/2007/06/12/eight-points-for-better-e-mail-relationships/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2007/06/12/eight-points-for-better-e-mail-relationships/</link>
	<description>Web design news and insights since 1995</description>
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		<title>By: Why we need standards support in HTML email - Blog - Campaign Monitor</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2007/06/12/eight-points-for-better-e-mail-relationships/#comment-51449</link>
		<dc:creator>Why we need standards support in HTML email - Blog - Campaign Monitor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 16:32:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2007/06/12/eight-points-for-better-e-mail-relationships/#comment-51449</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] can get behind this the easier the job will be. Even the king of web standards, Jeffrey Zeldman agrees (emphasis his): Learn how HTML mail works (or doesn&#8217;t) across as many platforms as possible, [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] can get behind this the easier the job will be. Even the king of web standards, Jeffrey Zeldman agrees (emphasis his): Learn how HTML mail works (or doesn&#8217;t) across as many platforms as possible, [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--></p>
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		<title>By: SkillShare Forum - CSS Beauty - Anyone know why I shouldn&#39;t embed images into html emails?</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2007/06/12/eight-points-for-better-e-mail-relationships/#comment-49736</link>
		<dc:creator>SkillShare Forum - CSS Beauty - Anyone know why I shouldn&#39;t embed images into html emails?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:16:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2007/06/12/eight-points-for-better-e-mail-relationships/#comment-49736</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] CommentTimeJun 14th 2007   &#160;permalink  Zeldman has reconsidered some of his points about HTML email:http://www.zeldman.com/2007/06/12/eight-points-for-better-e-mail-relationships/ [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] CommentTimeJun 14th 2007   &nbsp;permalink  Zeldman has reconsidered some of his points about HTML email:<a href="http://www.zeldman.com/2007/06/12/eight-points-for-better-e-mail-relationships/">http://www.zeldman.com/2007/06/12/eight-points-for-better-e-mail-relationships/</a> [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--></p>
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		<title>By: Zeldman&#8217;s Rant Against HTML Email &#124; MailChimp Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2007/06/12/eight-points-for-better-e-mail-relationships/#comment-42919</link>
		<dc:creator>Zeldman&#8217;s Rant Against HTML Email &#124; MailChimp Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 13:03:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2007/06/12/eight-points-for-better-e-mail-relationships/#comment-42919</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] has since posted a followup, but it&#8217;s not really worth reading if you&#8217;re experienced in any way with email [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] has since posted a followup, but it&#8217;s not really worth reading if you&#8217;re experienced in any way with email [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--></p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: WEB 3.0 &#187; Blog Archive &#187; ¿Así que querías saber (casi todo) de CSS?</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2007/06/12/eight-points-for-better-e-mail-relationships/#comment-41770</link>
		<dc:creator>WEB 3.0 &#187; Blog Archive &#187; ¿Así que querías saber (casi todo) de CSS?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Apr 2009 01:37:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2007/06/12/eight-points-for-better-e-mail-relationships/#comment-41770</guid>
		<description>[...]  Eight Points for Better E-mail Relationships - Jeffery Zeldman [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]  Eight Points for Better E-mail Relationships &#8211; Jeffery Zeldman [...]</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Web Design References: Standards, Guidelines and Patterns</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2007/06/12/eight-points-for-better-e-mail-relationships/#comment-37026</link>
		<dc:creator>Web Design References: Standards, Guidelines and Patterns</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 21:05:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2007/06/12/eight-points-for-better-e-mail-relationships/#comment-37026</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...]  Eight Points for Better E-mail Relationships - Jeffery Zeldman [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...]  Eight Points for Better E-mail Relationships &#8211; Jeffery Zeldman [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--></p>
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		<title>By: nitzsche.info/Blog/Standards in HTML-E-Mails</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2007/06/12/eight-points-for-better-e-mail-relationships/#comment-36958</link>
		<dc:creator>nitzsche.info/Blog/Standards in HTML-E-Mails</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 07:10:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2007/06/12/eight-points-for-better-e-mail-relationships/#comment-36958</guid>
		<description>[...] Eight points for better e-mail relationships, by Jeffrey Zeldman [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Eight points for better e-mail relationships, by Jeffrey Zeldman [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey Zeldman</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2007/06/12/eight-points-for-better-e-mail-relationships/#comment-24614</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey Zeldman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 18:39:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2007/06/12/eight-points-for-better-e-mail-relationships/#comment-24614</guid>
		<description>@TJ: That kind of mature, sober reasoning must win a lot of converts to your point of view. I&#039;m sorry you can&#039;t express yourself without insulting others. Must be lonely in your little world of pain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@TJ: That kind of mature, sober reasoning must win a lot of converts to your point of view. I&#8217;m sorry you can&#8217;t express yourself without insulting others. Must be lonely in your little world of pain.</p>
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		<title>By: TJ</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2007/06/12/eight-points-for-better-e-mail-relationships/#comment-24574</link>
		<dc:creator>TJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 04:00:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2007/06/12/eight-points-for-better-e-mail-relationships/#comment-24574</guid>
		<description>Plain Text is for losers stuck in 1995. Get real and catch up. Communication is more than characters on a page.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Plain Text is for losers stuck in 1995. Get real and catch up. Communication is more than characters on a page.</p>
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		<title>By: Keven Ages</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2007/06/12/eight-points-for-better-e-mail-relationships/#comment-17635</link>
		<dc:creator>Keven Ages</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:39:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2007/06/12/eight-points-for-better-e-mail-relationships/#comment-17635</guid>
		<description>@Gregg

&lt;blockquote&gt;Standards for email are a worthwhile cause.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

There are standards for email. &gt; http://www.imc.org/rfcs.html

That being said however.  If we all waited for &#039;standards&#039; to change instead of pushing the boundaries.  Standards would never change or surely change at such a snail&#039;s pace, we&#039;d all still be designing in table structure.

The unfortunate thing with &#039;standards&#039; is they only define what &#039;is&#039; and not &#039;what could be&#039; often making them stifling to your project.

Look at things like the iframe for example.  iframe is/was a handy little thing which took a long time to become standards compliant.  However, enough people bought into this &#039;microsoft&#039; tag that all browsers and w3 adopted it.

It&#039;s called progress.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Gregg</p>
<blockquote><p>Standards for email are a worthwhile cause.</p></blockquote>
<p>There are standards for email. &gt; <a href="http://www.imc.org/rfcs.html">http://www.imc.org/rfcs.html</a></p>
<p>That being said however.  If we all waited for &#8216;standards&#8217; to change instead of pushing the boundaries.  Standards would never change or surely change at such a snail&#8217;s pace, we&#8217;d all still be designing in table structure.</p>
<p>The unfortunate thing with &#8216;standards&#8217; is they only define what &#8216;is&#8217; and not &#8216;what could be&#8217; often making them stifling to your project.</p>
<p>Look at things like the iframe for example.  iframe is/was a handy little thing which took a long time to become standards compliant.  However, enough people bought into this &#8216;microsoft&#8217; tag that all browsers and w3 adopted it.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s called progress.</p>
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		<title>By: Gregg</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2007/06/12/eight-points-for-better-e-mail-relationships/#comment-17446</link>
		<dc:creator>Gregg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2007 20:50:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2007/06/12/eight-points-for-better-e-mail-relationships/#comment-17446</guid>
		<description>For a community that is supposedly keen on accessibility and usability, many of these comments are disappointing to say the least. Plain text is unusable in many circumstances. Likewise, the crap HTML that is supported by today&#039;s email clients is inaccessible in many circumstances. There&#039;s no reason for it except that there are no standards. 

Standards for email would be a godsend on so many fronts. Even the text only crowd should be concerned that there are no standards for email. (Didn&#039;t you find it disappointing that the ascii art you spent hours working on didn&#039;t show up as fixed width font when you sent it to that cute girl in communications?)

I tried emailing the Web Standards Project to express my interest in volunteering but their email bounced (don&#039;t get me started about lack of standards around bounce messages). 

I&#039;ve also tried to rally a group at the Email Experience Council but so far there are no takers.

I make good money as a result of the mess created by the lack of standards for email but I&#039;m happy to give up email design if it means that email would be accessible and usable for all. 

I hope this discussion gets people fired up. Standards for email are a worthwhile cause.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For a community that is supposedly keen on accessibility and usability, many of these comments are disappointing to say the least. Plain text is unusable in many circumstances. Likewise, the crap HTML that is supported by today&#8217;s email clients is inaccessible in many circumstances. There&#8217;s no reason for it except that there are no standards. </p>
<p>Standards for email would be a godsend on so many fronts. Even the text only crowd should be concerned that there are no standards for email. (Didn&#8217;t you find it disappointing that the ascii art you spent hours working on didn&#8217;t show up as fixed width font when you sent it to that cute girl in communications?)</p>
<p>I tried emailing the Web Standards Project to express my interest in volunteering but their email bounced (don&#8217;t get me started about lack of standards around bounce messages). </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve also tried to rally a group at the Email Experience Council but so far there are no takers.</p>
<p>I make good money as a result of the mess created by the lack of standards for email but I&#8217;m happy to give up email design if it means that email would be accessible and usable for all. </p>
<p>I hope this discussion gets people fired up. Standards for email are a worthwhile cause.</p>
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		<title>By: jhc</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2007/06/12/eight-points-for-better-e-mail-relationships/#comment-17388</link>
		<dc:creator>jhc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jul 2007 20:26:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2007/06/12/eight-points-for-better-e-mail-relationships/#comment-17388</guid>
		<description>I think some of the people touting HTML email don&#039;t understand how many people are (willingly!) using text-mode terminal-based UNIX email clients for mail.  People who use pine or mutt (or vi :-)) aren&#039;t doing it because they&#039;re old curmudgeons.  They&#039;re doing it because they find it to be a more productive environment to work in.

So the contention that HTML always communicates more effectively is bogus.  It might, if you see something other than a screen full of tags.

To comply with the standards, a web browser must be able to process HTML and display it to the user.  An email client, *by the standards*, must display plain text, full stop.  The standards don&#039;t require HTML in an email client.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think some of the people touting HTML email don&#8217;t understand how many people are (willingly!) using text-mode terminal-based UNIX email clients for mail.  People who use pine or mutt (or vi :-)) aren&#8217;t doing it because they&#8217;re old curmudgeons.  They&#8217;re doing it because they find it to be a more productive environment to work in.</p>
<p>So the contention that HTML always communicates more effectively is bogus.  It might, if you see something other than a screen full of tags.</p>
<p>To comply with the standards, a web browser must be able to process HTML and display it to the user.  An email client, *by the standards*, must display plain text, full stop.  The standards don&#8217;t require HTML in an email client.</p>
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		<title>By: Adrian</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2007/06/12/eight-points-for-better-e-mail-relationships/#comment-17285</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jul 2007 16:02:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2007/06/12/eight-points-for-better-e-mail-relationships/#comment-17285</guid>
		<description>It strikes me that we are living in a digital world of user extremes: we want 48&quot; TVs that we have to sit on the far side of the room to enjoy, and iPhones where our fat little fingers try to manipulate tiny (but oh-so-cool!) images. At the same time, &lt;strike&gt;some&lt;/strike&gt; most of us are still texting using only our opposable thumbs (on mobiles where you would think speech recognition would come as standard).

I agree with parts of many of the points raised, but it seems to me there should be some &#039;middle way&#039; between the overblown excesses of a multicorp adfest and plain old ascii. I now wear glasses, and peering at tightly-bunched, unformatted stuff that looks like something from the era of The Rockford Files bugs me in a different way from wading through screeds of pointless images from Getty. I sometimes want a little &#039;soft sell&#039;, and a little whitespace, with my info. Surely something akin to &lt;a href=&quot;http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Markdown&lt;/a&gt; for the masses is not too much to ask?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It strikes me that we are living in a digital world of user extremes: we want 48&#8243; TVs that we have to sit on the far side of the room to enjoy, and iPhones where our fat little fingers try to manipulate tiny (but oh-so-cool!) images. At the same time, <strike>some</strike> most of us are still texting using only our opposable thumbs (on mobiles where you would think speech recognition would come as standard).</p>
<p>I agree with parts of many of the points raised, but it seems to me there should be some &#8216;middle way&#8217; between the overblown excesses of a multicorp adfest and plain old ascii. I now wear glasses, and peering at tightly-bunched, unformatted stuff that looks like something from the era of The Rockford Files bugs me in a different way from wading through screeds of pointless images from Getty. I sometimes want a little &#8216;soft sell&#8217;, and a little whitespace, with my info. Surely something akin to <a href="http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/" rel="nofollow">Markdown</a> for the masses is not too much to ask?</p>
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		<title>By: Ferenc Hargitai</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2007/06/12/eight-points-for-better-e-mail-relationships/#comment-17003</link>
		<dc:creator>Ferenc Hargitai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jul 2007 16:50:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2007/06/12/eight-points-for-better-e-mail-relationships/#comment-17003</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve read your previous post and this one too. I consider point 1-3 the most important ones, thank you for making me notice these recommendations!

However, think again when recommending plain text as a good solution as it is: &#039;ASCII means never having to say you’re sorry.&#039;
Maybe for you,  English-speaking friend, but not for us, whose alphabet contains more letters and/or accents than the English alphabet. For us, ASCII has been really pain in the ass for a long time now. I&#039;m not talking about missing localized keyboards and key-code switching madness, but also sending an e-mail through servers using 7 bits (and thus cutting some extra letters/characters we used). For us, a unified character-layout, like UTF-8 can be a dream came true - we wished for nearly a decade.
I would like to poit out, that even in case of opting for plain text, a common and usable standard charset is necessary, so as we could be able to communicate flawlessly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve read your previous post and this one too. I consider point 1-3 the most important ones, thank you for making me notice these recommendations!</p>
<p>However, think again when recommending plain text as a good solution as it is: &#8216;ASCII means never having to say you’re sorry.&#8217;<br />
Maybe for you,  English-speaking friend, but not for us, whose alphabet contains more letters and/or accents than the English alphabet. For us, ASCII has been really pain in the ass for a long time now. I&#8217;m not talking about missing localized keyboards and key-code switching madness, but also sending an e-mail through servers using 7 bits (and thus cutting some extra letters/characters we used). For us, a unified character-layout, like UTF-8 can be a dream came true &#8211; we wished for nearly a decade.<br />
I would like to poit out, that even in case of opting for plain text, a common and usable standard charset is necessary, so as we could be able to communicate flawlessly.</p>
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		<title>By: cięcie betonu technika diamentowa</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2007/06/12/eight-points-for-better-e-mail-relationships/#comment-16514</link>
		<dc:creator>cięcie betonu technika diamentowa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jun 2007 10:27:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2007/06/12/eight-points-for-better-e-mail-relationships/#comment-16514</guid>
		<description>Espeacially IMAP should be re-evaluate for PHP libs...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Espeacially IMAP should be re-evaluate for PHP libs&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: meble hotelowe trams</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2007/06/12/eight-points-for-better-e-mail-relationships/#comment-16513</link>
		<dc:creator>meble hotelowe trams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jun 2007 10:26:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2007/06/12/eight-points-for-better-e-mail-relationships/#comment-16513</guid>
		<description>They need to improve some of these mailing standards …</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They need to improve some of these mailing standards …</p>
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