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	<title>Comments on: Where are the Women? Where are the Links?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.zeldman.com/2007/04/18/cant-link-with-em/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2007/04/18/cant-link-with-em/</link>
	<description>Web design news and insights since 1995</description>
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		<title>By: Trabaja y deja trabajar - Dizque</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2007/04/18/cant-link-with-em/#comment-48883</link>
		<dc:creator>Trabaja y deja trabajar - Dizque</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 01:07:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2007/04/18/cant-link-with-em/#comment-48883</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] Palabras de Jeffrey Zeldman (en Where are the Women? Where are the Links?): [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] Palabras de Jeffrey Zeldman (en Where are the Women? Where are the Links?): [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--></p>
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		<title>By: Web Links Section &#183; Fingertips</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2007/04/18/cant-link-with-em/#comment-37421</link>
		<dc:creator>Web Links Section &#183; Fingertips</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 07:31:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2007/04/18/cant-link-with-em/#comment-37421</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] protocol. Thijs (edit) ¶   A List Apart: The Web Design Survey, 2007. Take it. Thijs (edit) ¶   Jeffrey Zeldman Presents: Where are the Women? Where are the Links?. &#8220;Information architecture. Usability. Accessibility. Web standards. If you don’t know [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] protocol. Thijs (edit) ¶   A List Apart: The Web Design Survey, 2007. Take it. Thijs (edit) ¶   Jeffrey Zeldman Presents: Where are the Women? Where are the Links?. &#8220;Information architecture. Usability. Accessibility. Web standards. If you don’t know [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--></p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2007/04/18/cant-link-with-em/#comment-14085</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jun 2007 22:20:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2007/04/18/cant-link-with-em/#comment-14085</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m confused: the Art Director&#039;s Guild site is all HTML, has pretty nice (and bookmarkable) URLs throughout, and although it&#039;s not actually valid, is called &quot;tentatively valid&quot; by the W3C validator. I see no Flash anywhere. 

Maybe they &lt;b&gt;just&lt;/b&gt; updated an old site with this new one? Otherwise, the complaints in this post don&#039;t make any sense at all to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m confused: the Art Director&#8217;s Guild site is all HTML, has pretty nice (and bookmarkable) URLs throughout, and although it&#8217;s not actually valid, is called &#8220;tentatively valid&#8221; by the W3C validator. I see no Flash anywhere. </p>
<p>Maybe they <strong>just</strong> updated an old site with this new one? Otherwise, the complaints in this post don&#8217;t make any sense at all to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Timmy V.</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2007/04/18/cant-link-with-em/#comment-13955</link>
		<dc:creator>Timmy V.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2007 18:36:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2007/04/18/cant-link-with-em/#comment-13955</guid>
		<description>I feel your pain!

One of the most frustrating things that I&#039;ve run into as a just-getting-started designer is designing for people (usually younger folks) who have grown up with broadband connections with flash installed and javascript turned on and monitors 1280x900 and above who just don&#039;t understand that even though a flash site may be pretty, it&#039;s not particularly usable for the general populace.  

My struggle in this has been to educate said customers that though they may never have experienced it, there is a significant portion of the population who might want to come to their site that would never come again if on the home page it showed a link that said, download the latest version of flash.  In many cases, simpler is better &lt;em&gt;and&lt;/em&gt; more usable (as is the case with the Art Directors Club).

Great post!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I feel your pain!</p>
<p>One of the most frustrating things that I&#8217;ve run into as a just-getting-started designer is designing for people (usually younger folks) who have grown up with broadband connections with flash installed and javascript turned on and monitors 1280&#215;900 and above who just don&#8217;t understand that even though a flash site may be pretty, it&#8217;s not particularly usable for the general populace.  </p>
<p>My struggle in this has been to educate said customers that though they may never have experienced it, there is a significant portion of the population who might want to come to their site that would never come again if on the home page it showed a link that said, download the latest version of flash.  In many cases, simpler is better <em>and</em> more usable (as is the case with the Art Directors Club).</p>
<p>Great post!</p>
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		<title>By: Issam El Armi</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2007/04/18/cant-link-with-em/#comment-12599</link>
		<dc:creator>Issam El Armi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 May 2007 08:30:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2007/04/18/cant-link-with-em/#comment-12599</guid>
		<description>I spent most of the last years making &lt;em&gt; Flash websites &lt;/em&gt; for my clients. 
Why ? because it&#039;s &lt;strong&gt;so hip&lt;/strong&gt;!

And even if I tried hard to change my clients mind ( because sometimes ... well many times) Flash isn&#039;t the thing they need, they were always insisting on having eye candy and animations instead of accessibility, usability and standards ( cause they don&#039;t give a damn about anything, they just want a site as cute as the big firm&#039;s one) ...
I they only could see the truth ...

maybe I should lecture every new client some of Zeldman&#039;s words so they get the point :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I spent most of the last years making <em> Flash websites </em> for my clients.<br />
Why ? because it&#8217;s <strong>so hip</strong>!</p>
<p>And even if I tried hard to change my clients mind ( because sometimes &#8230; well many times) Flash isn&#8217;t the thing they need, they were always insisting on having eye candy and animations instead of accessibility, usability and standards ( cause they don&#8217;t give a damn about anything, they just want a site as cute as the big firm&#8217;s one) &#8230;<br />
I they only could see the truth &#8230;</p>
<p>maybe I should lecture every new client some of Zeldman&#8217;s words so they get the point :)</p>
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		<title>By: jimworm</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2007/04/18/cant-link-with-em/#comment-11648</link>
		<dc:creator>jimworm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Apr 2007 00:45:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2007/04/18/cant-link-with-em/#comment-11648</guid>
		<description>It is surprising the kinds of people that claim to be web designers. It makes recruitment a bit more difficult.

Seeing a real and working portfolio (not just screenshots!) goes a long way when weeding out the Dreamweaver kiddies, but it only helps if one knows what he&#039;s looking at. Perhaps a specialised web design portfolio-screening service is what we need?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is surprising the kinds of people that claim to be web designers. It makes recruitment a bit more difficult.</p>
<p>Seeing a real and working portfolio (not just screenshots!) goes a long way when weeding out the Dreamweaver kiddies, but it only helps if one knows what he&#8217;s looking at. Perhaps a specialised web design portfolio-screening service is what we need?</p>
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		<title>By: Norika Wolf</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2007/04/18/cant-link-with-em/#comment-11281</link>
		<dc:creator>Norika Wolf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Apr 2007 13:37:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2007/04/18/cant-link-with-em/#comment-11281</guid>
		<description>“Information architecture. Usability. Accessibility. Web standards. If you don’t know about these things [...]&quot;

Being a professional female web designer (not from the States though, I&#039;m Austrian) I&#039;d like you to know that almost 50% of my time goes into learning about those things.  They&#039;re basic knowledge for any web designer, female or not. The problem is that everybody can call himself/herself a web designer. There are no diplomas required, you do not have to prove that you know what you&#039;re doing. How should a client know if one did have a professional trainig. And even if you have a certificat showing that you did some 2-days course on web design - what does it tell?  How is knowledge on the topic attestable?
Probably that&#039;s what we need? Perhaps there should be some kind of diploma which one must aquire before one is allowed to call oneself a web designer?
It don&#039;t seem the solution to the problem to me. As far as my experience goes possessing a piece of paper does not prove anything.

Keep on writing, repeat yourself - over and over again .... that seems the only thing you (we) can do.

Noreya</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“Information architecture. Usability. Accessibility. Web standards. If you don’t know about these things [...]&#8221;</p>
<p>Being a professional female web designer (not from the States though, I&#8217;m Austrian) I&#8217;d like you to know that almost 50% of my time goes into learning about those things.  They&#8217;re basic knowledge for any web designer, female or not. The problem is that everybody can call himself/herself a web designer. There are no diplomas required, you do not have to prove that you know what you&#8217;re doing. How should a client know if one did have a professional trainig. And even if you have a certificat showing that you did some 2-days course on web design &#8211; what does it tell?  How is knowledge on the topic attestable?<br />
Probably that&#8217;s what we need? Perhaps there should be some kind of diploma which one must aquire before one is allowed to call oneself a web designer?<br />
It don&#8217;t seem the solution to the problem to me. As far as my experience goes possessing a piece of paper does not prove anything.</p>
<p>Keep on writing, repeat yourself &#8211; over and over again &#8230;. that seems the only thing you (we) can do.</p>
<p>Noreya</p>
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		<title>By: Juuri</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2007/04/18/cant-link-with-em/#comment-11201</link>
		<dc:creator>Juuri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2007 03:04:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2007/04/18/cant-link-with-em/#comment-11201</guid>
		<description>Curiously clicked on the link to R/GA site and encountered...nothing
still wondering, i went back and clicked to see the Art Directors Club&#039;s page and looked straight into pure whiteness!!?! It had a bright orange text, reading &quot;You must have javascript turned on to view this site.&quot;, in fact even this was hard to read and i am not colorblind.
It seems that Flash(TM) wasn&#039;t enough, even all of us who have javascript deactivated have to stay outside.
I really wonder how they get listed in any SE at all?

Respect, and keep on fighting for accessibility and the use of web standards.so do i!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Curiously clicked on the link to R/GA site and encountered&#8230;nothing<br />
still wondering, i went back and clicked to see the Art Directors Club&#8217;s page and looked straight into pure whiteness!!?! It had a bright orange text, reading &#8220;You must have javascript turned on to view this site.&#8221;, in fact even this was hard to read and i am not colorblind.<br />
It seems that Flash(TM) wasn&#8217;t enough, even all of us who have javascript deactivated have to stay outside.<br />
I really wonder how they get listed in any SE at all?</p>
<p>Respect, and keep on fighting for accessibility and the use of web standards.so do i!</p>
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		<title>By: Webby</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2007/04/18/cant-link-with-em/#comment-11088</link>
		<dc:creator>Webby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Apr 2007 06:04:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2007/04/18/cant-link-with-em/#comment-11088</guid>
		<description>Amazing website and interesting topics.  I was one of the first women to graduate in computer technology in my province.  My schooling started in graphic design before computers became mainstream and Microsoft&#039;s birth.  I was introduced via boards to two young guys who sent a sound download along with the access to their search engine and people wonder where the name Yahoo came from!  In all my years the ratio was always more men than women.  I really don&#039;t know why - but in my experience instructors and bosses skewed the more technical challenges to the unattached youngest males in the group.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amazing website and interesting topics.  I was one of the first women to graduate in computer technology in my province.  My schooling started in graphic design before computers became mainstream and Microsoft&#8217;s birth.  I was introduced via boards to two young guys who sent a sound download along with the access to their search engine and people wonder where the name Yahoo came from!  In all my years the ratio was always more men than women.  I really don&#8217;t know why &#8211; but in my experience instructors and bosses skewed the more technical challenges to the unattached youngest males in the group.</p>
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		<title>By: stephen eighmey</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2007/04/18/cant-link-with-em/#comment-11050</link>
		<dc:creator>stephen eighmey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Apr 2007 21:01:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2007/04/18/cant-link-with-em/#comment-11050</guid>
		<description>Understanding the web standards philosophy is a critical component of being a professional web designer.  But understand that designing an effective user experience for the web does not mean constant adherence to these principles.  You should always design for the need.  

The web industry needs standards, badly.  For the community to move forward we need to remove the reliance on proprietary elements.  Information should be freely available, in many forms, on many devices; beauty can be created on that foundation.  Just let&#039;s not deride Flash for not being accessible or standards compliant. 

The web is not just about rss feeds, or linking to an exact piece of information, or being able to increase your font sizes.  It&#039;s also about exploring.  It&#039;s about experience, information, in a particular context.  

I have great respect for a beautiful, standards compliant website.  I have just as much respect for a beautiful and well designed Flash site.   

ps...unfortunately, the art directors club website is a poor example of what flash can be, but take a look at some of the sites on thefwa.com.  there are some amazing user experiences there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Understanding the web standards philosophy is a critical component of being a professional web designer.  But understand that designing an effective user experience for the web does not mean constant adherence to these principles.  You should always design for the need.  </p>
<p>The web industry needs standards, badly.  For the community to move forward we need to remove the reliance on proprietary elements.  Information should be freely available, in many forms, on many devices; beauty can be created on that foundation.  Just let&#8217;s not deride Flash for not being accessible or standards compliant. </p>
<p>The web is not just about rss feeds, or linking to an exact piece of information, or being able to increase your font sizes.  It&#8217;s also about exploring.  It&#8217;s about experience, information, in a particular context.  </p>
<p>I have great respect for a beautiful, standards compliant website.  I have just as much respect for a beautiful and well designed Flash site.   </p>
<p>ps&#8230;unfortunately, the art directors club website is a poor example of what flash can be, but take a look at some of the sites on thefwa.com.  there are some amazing user experiences there.</p>
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		<title>By: Lauri</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2007/04/18/cant-link-with-em/#comment-10988</link>
		<dc:creator>Lauri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Apr 2007 05:48:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2007/04/18/cant-link-with-em/#comment-10988</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m a female web designer, although I&#039;m transitioning more into designing motion graphics for stage shows. My actual bachelor&#039;s degree is in Chemical Engineering so I&#039;m no stranger to technical fields and have always been science-minded.  My educational track had been to be a chemist until female engineers from 3M came to my high school and spoke to girls about opportunities in engineering and how my income and career potential would be much better as an engineer. After I got laid off, lol, I decided to try a more creative field and started doing design production. When I discovered the web back in the early 90&#039;s, I found a happy middleground between technical and creative interests and latched onto it.

Maybe more women would go into web development if there were programs like the female engineer one showing girls that tech fields are not just for guys who maybe spend alot more time in front of the computer than being with people. Sorry for the stereotype, no offense intended, but maybe that&#039;s how young girls perceive the field without visible role models to the contrary. I assume there are still many women going into graphic design so what are the efforts in those schools to encourage specializing in web design?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a female web designer, although I&#8217;m transitioning more into designing motion graphics for stage shows. My actual bachelor&#8217;s degree is in Chemical Engineering so I&#8217;m no stranger to technical fields and have always been science-minded.  My educational track had been to be a chemist until female engineers from 3M came to my high school and spoke to girls about opportunities in engineering and how my income and career potential would be much better as an engineer. After I got laid off, lol, I decided to try a more creative field and started doing design production. When I discovered the web back in the early 90&#8217;s, I found a happy middleground between technical and creative interests and latched onto it.</p>
<p>Maybe more women would go into web development if there were programs like the female engineer one showing girls that tech fields are not just for guys who maybe spend alot more time in front of the computer than being with people. Sorry for the stereotype, no offense intended, but maybe that&#8217;s how young girls perceive the field without visible role models to the contrary. I assume there are still many women going into graphic design so what are the efforts in those schools to encourage specializing in web design?</p>
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		<title>By: Lydia Mann</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2007/04/18/cant-link-with-em/#comment-10947</link>
		<dc:creator>Lydia Mann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Apr 2007 20:06:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2007/04/18/cant-link-with-em/#comment-10947</guid>
		<description>Being that this occurs tonight this information may be a little late, if not beside the point, but here&#039;s a link to &quot;The Woman Vanguard&quot;: http://www.adcglobal.org/YoungGunsLive/

Which is not to say all your comments aren&#039;t dead on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Being that this occurs tonight this information may be a little late, if not beside the point, but here&#8217;s a link to &#8220;The Woman Vanguard&#8221;: <a href="http://www.adcglobal.org/YoungGunsLive/" rel="nofollow">http://www.adcglobal.org/YoungGunsLive/</a></p>
<p>Which is not to say all your comments aren&#8217;t dead on.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Weychert</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2007/04/18/cant-link-with-em/#comment-10917</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Weychert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Apr 2007 13:24:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2007/04/18/cant-link-with-em/#comment-10917</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Did he work on the Garp titles? Alien? Zelig?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;m pretty sure he worked on the Alien titles. I know he also worked on visual effects for Predator, Judge Dredd, and The Matrix.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Did he work on the Garp titles? Alien? Zelig?</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;m pretty sure he worked on the Alien titles. I know he also worked on visual effects for Predator, Judge Dredd, and The Matrix.</p>
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		<title>By: BlueClock</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2007/04/18/cant-link-with-em/#comment-10911</link>
		<dc:creator>BlueClock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Apr 2007 10:24:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2007/04/18/cant-link-with-em/#comment-10911</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve just had a look at their site and there really isn&#039;t anything in there that couldn&#039;t have been done using HTML and Javascript. 

Last week they were cited by Forrester as one of the top web design agencies. It&#039;s a depressing read from a standard/ accessibility /usability point of view.

Here&#039;s a link to their print version of the press release http://www.rga.com/press_detail.asp?id=4737 or as they say in flash.. go to the home page, click on news, click on release, click on 11 Apr 07

Massive global brands seek out companies like this that create visually stunning sites and they have created a lot of sites that I have visited in the past. 

Persuading companies like this to embrace standards could have a massive impact on the direction of the web.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve just had a look at their site and there really isn&#8217;t anything in there that couldn&#8217;t have been done using HTML and Javascript. </p>
<p>Last week they were cited by Forrester as one of the top web design agencies. It&#8217;s a depressing read from a standard/ accessibility /usability point of view.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s a link to their print version of the press release <a href="http://www.rga.com/press_detail.asp?id=4737" rel="nofollow">http://www.rga.com/press_detail.asp?id=4737</a> or as they say in flash.. go to the home page, click on news, click on release, click on 11 Apr 07</p>
<p>Massive global brands seek out companies like this that create visually stunning sites and they have created a lot of sites that I have visited in the past. </p>
<p>Persuading companies like this to embrace standards could have a massive impact on the direction of the web.</p>
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		<title>By: Stéphane Deschamps</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2007/04/18/cant-link-with-em/#comment-10906</link>
		<dc:creator>Stéphane Deschamps</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Apr 2007 09:17:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2007/04/18/cant-link-with-em/#comment-10906</guid>
		<description>Hey Jeffrey,

I hope you don&#039;t mind, but &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nota-bene.org/Qualite-web-on-commence-juste&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;I translated the last part of your post to French&lt;/a&gt; and added a comment along the lines of &quot;everything still has to be done&quot;. I&#039;ve paralleled it with a comment made by one of the speakers of our Paris Web 2006 conference, who thought that the whole shebang was integrated in people&#039;s minds, and then realised that it&#039;s not the case yet, not by a long shot.

Thanks for griping: it feels comforting, in a way, to know that we&#039;re right to continue advocating and shouldn&#039;t stop. What&#039;s &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; comforting is that we should have stopped advocating by now ;)

PS: if you can&#039;t read French, get in touch via email and I&#039;ll translate the whole thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Jeffrey,</p>
<p>I hope you don&#8217;t mind, but <a href="http://www.nota-bene.org/Qualite-web-on-commence-juste" rel="nofollow">I translated the last part of your post to French</a> and added a comment along the lines of &#8220;everything still has to be done&#8221;. I&#8217;ve paralleled it with a comment made by one of the speakers of our Paris Web 2006 conference, who thought that the whole shebang was integrated in people&#8217;s minds, and then realised that it&#8217;s not the case yet, not by a long shot.</p>
<p>Thanks for griping: it feels comforting, in a way, to know that we&#8217;re right to continue advocating and shouldn&#8217;t stop. What&#8217;s <em>not</em> comforting is that we should have stopped advocating by now ;)</p>
<p>PS: if you can&#8217;t read French, get in touch via email and I&#8217;ll translate the whole thing.</p>
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