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	<title>Comments on: Amazonked! (or, the 2nd Edition Dilemma)</title>
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	<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2006/07/26/amazonked/</link>
	<description>Web design news and insights since 1995</description>
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		<title>By: Bjarni Wark</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2006/07/26/amazonked/#comment-29274</link>
		<dc:creator>Bjarni Wark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2008 22:07:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2006/07/26/amazonked/#comment-29274</guid>
		<description>I really liked your first book, most inspiring and insightful. The book content made changing gears so much easier and faster.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really liked your first book, most inspiring and insightful. The book content made changing gears so much easier and faster.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Heath</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2006/07/26/amazonked/#comment-7199</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Heath</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Jan 2007 12:25:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2006/07/26/amazonked/#comment-7199</guid>
		<description>Jeffrey, a good point well made, nice one. I have a request to make of you in a similar vein. The background is this... I loved the book in its first edition and was about to write a review of it on &lt;a href=&quot;http://revyu.com/&quot; title=&quot;Revyu.com - Review Anything&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Revyu.com&lt;/a&gt;, a site I&#039;m working on that takes an RDF and Semantic Web approach to reviews and ratings, but I hit a snag...

A crucial hook that the system uses to uniquely identify &quot;things&quot; is the URL of their homepage. The logic goes like this: if someone says that a certain thing has a homepage at a certain URL, and someone else says that another thing (which may or may not be the same thing as the first thing) also has a homepage at the same URL, then we can infer that the two things are the same. This is a feature not a bug, and massively increases the ability to link data on the web. However, the issue is that only homepages which uniquely identify specific things should be used in the homepage field.

Unfortunately the DWWS homepage does not distinguish between the first and the second editions, at least it doesn&#039;t provide different URIs/URLs for each. Is there any chance of creating separate pages (or at least separate URLs, whatever you choose to put at the end of them), maybe along the lines of:
http://www.zeldman.com/dwws/1e and http://www.zeldman.com/dwws/2e ? This would seem in keeping with the ethos of your post.

(Of course one could argue that http://www.zeldman.com/dwws/ refers to the abstract work DWWS, and therefore both editions deserve one homepage. However given that there are substantial changes between the two editions, one could also argue they constitute different works...)

Anyway, would be interested to hear what you think, and looking forward to being able to write my review of the (uniquely identified ;) first edition.

Cheers, Tom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeffrey, a good point well made, nice one. I have a request to make of you in a similar vein. The background is this&#8230; I loved the book in its first edition and was about to write a review of it on <a href="http://revyu.com/" title="Revyu.com - Review Anything" rel="nofollow">Revyu.com</a>, a site I&#8217;m working on that takes an RDF and Semantic Web approach to reviews and ratings, but I hit a snag&#8230;</p>
<p>A crucial hook that the system uses to uniquely identify &#8220;things&#8221; is the URL of their homepage. The logic goes like this: if someone says that a certain thing has a homepage at a certain URL, and someone else says that another thing (which may or may not be the same thing as the first thing) also has a homepage at the same URL, then we can infer that the two things are the same. This is a feature not a bug, and massively increases the ability to link data on the web. However, the issue is that only homepages which uniquely identify specific things should be used in the homepage field.</p>
<p>Unfortunately the DWWS homepage does not distinguish between the first and the second editions, at least it doesn&#8217;t provide different URIs/URLs for each. Is there any chance of creating separate pages (or at least separate URLs, whatever you choose to put at the end of them), maybe along the lines of:<br />
<a href="http://www.zeldman.com/dwws/1e" rel="nofollow">http://www.zeldman.com/dwws/1e</a> and <a href="http://www.zeldman.com/dwws/2e" rel="nofollow">http://www.zeldman.com/dwws/2e</a> ? This would seem in keeping with the ethos of your post.</p>
<p>(Of course one could argue that <a href="http://www.zeldman.com/dwws/" rel="nofollow">http://www.zeldman.com/dwws/</a> refers to the abstract work DWWS, and therefore both editions deserve one homepage. However given that there are substantial changes between the two editions, one could also argue they constitute different works&#8230;)</p>
<p>Anyway, would be interested to hear what you think, and looking forward to being able to write my review of the (uniquely identified ;) first edition.</p>
<p>Cheers, Tom.</p>
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		<title>By: Arne Kriedemann</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2006/07/26/amazonked/#comment-5207</link>
		<dc:creator>Arne Kriedemann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Nov 2006 05:19:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2006/07/26/amazonked/#comment-5207</guid>
		<description>Today the book will be released by Addison-Wesley  as german translation:

http://www.amazon.de/Webdesign-mit-Webstandards-Grenzenlos-kompatibel/dp/3827324378/sr=8-2/qid=1163654251/ref=sr_1_2/302-6964664-4252825?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books

That was quite a fast translation!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Today the book will be released by Addison-Wesley  as german translation:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.amazon.de/Webdesign-mit-Webstandards-Grenzenlos-kompatibel/dp/3827324378/sr=8-2/qid=1163654251/ref=sr_1_2/302-6964664-4252825?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.de/Webdesign-mit-Webstandards-Grenzenlos-kompatibel/dp/3827324378/sr=8-2/qid=1163654251/ref=sr_1_2/302-6964664-4252825?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books</a></p>
<p>That was quite a fast translation!</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2006/07/26/amazonked/#comment-2978</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Aug 2006 16:13:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2006/07/26/amazonked/#comment-2978</guid>
		<description>Thanks Jeff, the book was gratefully received, and good use will be made of it. I agree with you about the first edition being stopped, but maybe there would be rare occasions when people would want both. Alan has a point as well about the stocks unless you published agrees to buy them back, ummm doubtful, (but wouldn&#039;t the world be a better place?)

However maybe amazon will take it on board, rather than leave it up to stupid consumers with colour blindness!

Oh don&#039;t know if you remember the whole saga, but needless to say we are both happy and enjoying the book, wink wink, nudge nudge! lol</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Jeff, the book was gratefully received, and good use will be made of it. I agree with you about the first edition being stopped, but maybe there would be rare occasions when people would want both. Alan has a point as well about the stocks unless you published agrees to buy them back, ummm doubtful, (but wouldn&#8217;t the world be a better place?)</p>
<p>However maybe amazon will take it on board, rather than leave it up to stupid consumers with colour blindness!</p>
<p>Oh don&#8217;t know if you remember the whole saga, but needless to say we are both happy and enjoying the book, wink wink, nudge nudge! lol</p>
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		<title>By: Alan, web developer</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2006/07/26/amazonked/#comment-2967</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan, web developer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Aug 2006 10:14:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2006/07/26/amazonked/#comment-2967</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s starnge that they can&#039;t deal with so small a problem. But on the other hand what will they do with stocks?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s starnge that they can&#8217;t deal with so small a problem. But on the other hand what will they do with stocks?</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey Zeldman</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2006/07/26/amazonked/#comment-530</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey Zeldman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2006 15:49:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2006/07/26/amazonked/#comment-530</guid>
		<description>Dave, thanks for sharing that story of a book purchase gone wrong. I&#039;m arranging to replace your friend&#039;s book with the second edition. 

The second edition is clearly labeled. The first edition isn&#039;t. No first edition ever is. That&#039;s because publishers have no way of knowing if a given book will come out in a second edition one day. It&#039;s like the old joke where the newcomer on the bus asks, &quot;How many stops until Maple Street?&quot; and the helpful longtime resident answers, &quot;Just watch me and get off one stop before I do.&quot;

It would be funny and gutsy to write a book with the words &quot;First Edition&quot; in its title. But that kind of hubris would almost guarantee failure, unless Jon Stewart were the author.

If Amazon (and other online retailers) were to immediately stop selling first editions as soon as they have second editions to sell, it would prevent accidental first-edition purchases from happening. Your friend wouldn&#039;t have bought the first edition if Amazon wasn&#039;t still selling it. 

Consumer logic says first editions should stop being sold the moment second editions are available, but business logic dictates otherwise. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave, thanks for sharing that story of a book purchase gone wrong. I&#8217;m arranging to replace your friend&#8217;s book with the second edition. </p>
<p>The second edition is clearly labeled. The first edition isn&#8217;t. No first edition ever is. That&#8217;s because publishers have no way of knowing if a given book will come out in a second edition one day. It&#8217;s like the old joke where the newcomer on the bus asks, &#8220;How many stops until Maple Street?&#8221; and the helpful longtime resident answers, &#8220;Just watch me and get off one stop before I do.&#8221;</p>
<p>It would be funny and gutsy to write a book with the words &#8220;First Edition&#8221; in its title. But that kind of hubris would almost guarantee failure, unless Jon Stewart were the author.</p>
<p>If Amazon (and other online retailers) were to immediately stop selling first editions as soon as they have second editions to sell, it would prevent accidental first-edition purchases from happening. Your friend wouldn&#8217;t have bought the first edition if Amazon wasn&#8217;t still selling it. </p>
<p>Consumer logic says first editions should stop being sold the moment second editions are available, but business logic dictates otherwise.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2006/07/26/amazonked/#comment-487</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Aug 2006 10:56:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2006/07/26/amazonked/#comment-487</guid>
		<description>I had a friend recently who I recommened to get your book, and told him to go for second edition, who was sent the first edition by Amazon.(bummer) He is going ahead a reading it anyway. I suspect though the mistake was his as he suffers from colour blindness and all I said was get the green one its the second edition. So maybe clearer labelling of different editions could help?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had a friend recently who I recommened to get your book, and told him to go for second edition, who was sent the first edition by Amazon.(bummer) He is going ahead a reading it anyway. I suspect though the mistake was his as he suffers from colour blindness and all I said was get the green one its the second edition. So maybe clearer labelling of different editions could help?</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Mackie</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2006/07/26/amazonked/#comment-480</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Mackie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Aug 2006 03:58:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2006/07/26/amazonked/#comment-480</guid>
		<description>We&#039;ve had just the same problem with some of our books, and it&#039;s a common complaint on some of the computer book author mailing lists. Your suggestion is a good one - as has been noted, the problem is that Amazon don&#039;t really know if the new edition is not much changed the old one, and therefore should keep the old reviews, or whether it&#039;s essentially a new book. Getting Amazon to correct this problem may take a while as it&#039;s been an issue for years. 

Good luck with your book!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We&#8217;ve had just the same problem with some of our books, and it&#8217;s a common complaint on some of the computer book author mailing lists. Your suggestion is a good one &#8211; as has been noted, the problem is that Amazon don&#8217;t really know if the new edition is not much changed the old one, and therefore should keep the old reviews, or whether it&#8217;s essentially a new book. Getting Amazon to correct this problem may take a while as it&#8217;s been an issue for years. </p>
<p>Good luck with your book!</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey Zeldman</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2006/07/26/amazonked/#comment-447</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey Zeldman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jul 2006 16:38:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2006/07/26/amazonked/#comment-447</guid>
		<description>Excellent comment, sir.

The problem could be solved via a checkbox. If the book contains a reasonable amount of new content, the publisher checks the box while submitting the book to Amazon for distribution. (The checkbox could say something like, &quot;This is a substantially revised edition.&quot;)

If the box is checked, then the second edition is treated in the way I&#039;ve suggested here. If it&#039;s not, then Amazon knows the edition is only marginally different from a previous version, and the old comments can linger indefinitely.

In your example, a new edition of &lt;cite&gt;Walden&lt;/cite&gt; might contain a new introductory essay, and perhaps a few corrections to errata in previous editions. These changes wouldn&#039;t invalidate previous comments about the merits of Thoreau&#039;s book. Amazon was probably thinking about that kind of second edition when it set up its multi-edition comment-handling rules.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent comment, sir.</p>
<p>The problem could be solved via a checkbox. If the book contains a reasonable amount of new content, the publisher checks the box while submitting the book to Amazon for distribution. (The checkbox could say something like, &#8220;This is a substantially revised edition.&#8221;)</p>
<p>If the box is checked, then the second edition is treated in the way I&#8217;ve suggested here. If it&#8217;s not, then Amazon knows the edition is only marginally different from a previous version, and the old comments can linger indefinitely.</p>
<p>In your example, a new edition of <cite>Walden</cite> might contain a new introductory essay, and perhaps a few corrections to errata in previous editions. These changes wouldn&#8217;t invalidate previous comments about the merits of Thoreau&#8217;s book. Amazon was probably thinking about that kind of second edition when it set up its multi-edition comment-handling rules.</p>
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		<title>By: Tony</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2006/07/26/amazonked/#comment-446</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jul 2006 15:56:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2006/07/26/amazonked/#comment-446</guid>
		<description>Isn&#039;t the problem somewhat specific to certain types of books? If a new edition of &lt;em&gt;Walden&lt;/em&gt;is printed, every one of the previous reviews, comments and ratings applies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t the problem somewhat specific to certain types of books? If a new edition of <em>Walden</em>is printed, every one of the previous reviews, comments and ratings applies.</p>
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		<title>By: Liminality... the space in between &#124; Archive Entry #117</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2006/07/26/amazonked/#comment-414</link>
		<dc:creator>Liminality... the space in between &#124; Archive Entry #117</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Jul 2006 04:02:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2006/07/26/amazonked/#comment-414</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] Although I&#8217;m sure there are numerous other examples, what you find at the Daily Kos is about as good as it gets for lengthy blog comment thread discussions. Just this past week, Jeffrey Zeldman implemented a public commenting system on his blog. The result? His first discussion-worthy post after the new system was introduced drew seventeen comments. One of these was a trackback and four comments were left by Jeffrey in response to commenters, leaving twelve original comments. No commenter commented twice, nor did any commenter mention a previous comment. It&#8217;s unlikely that anyone even read the previous comments. So just having a really popular website doesn&#8217;t guarantee discussion in the comments (although we&#8217;ll have to see what the future holds in Zeldman&#8217;s case). You may get feedback, but you probably won&#8217;t get true discussion. [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] Although I&#8217;m sure there are numerous other examples, what you find at the Daily Kos is about as good as it gets for lengthy blog comment thread discussions. Just this past week, Jeffrey Zeldman implemented a public commenting system on his blog. The result? His first discussion-worthy post after the new system was introduced drew seventeen comments. One of these was a trackback and four comments were left by Jeffrey in response to commenters, leaving twelve original comments. No commenter commented twice, nor did any commenter mention a previous comment. It&#8217;s unlikely that anyone even read the previous comments. So just having a really popular website doesn&#8217;t guarantee discussion in the comments (although we&#8217;ll have to see what the future holds in Zeldman&#8217;s case). You may get feedback, but you probably won&#8217;t get true discussion. [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--></p>
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		<title>By: Jim Bennett</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2006/07/26/amazonked/#comment-389</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Bennett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Jul 2006 22:46:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2006/07/26/amazonked/#comment-389</guid>
		<description>I ordered your book last week from another source on a Monday and it arrived last Friday. I read it over the weekend while on vacation.

A really good book that I can and will recommend to anyone involved in web site development.

For what it&#039;s worth - I didn&#039;t order it from Amazon.com but from a smaller tech-book company. A couple of bucks more than Amazon.com&#039;s price but well worth it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I ordered your book last week from another source on a Monday and it arrived last Friday. I read it over the weekend while on vacation.</p>
<p>A really good book that I can and will recommend to anyone involved in web site development.</p>
<p>For what it&#8217;s worth &#8211; I didn&#8217;t order it from Amazon.com but from a smaller tech-book company. A couple of bucks more than Amazon.com&#8217;s price but well worth it.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey Zeldman</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2006/07/26/amazonked/#comment-378</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey Zeldman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Jul 2006 14:33:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2006/07/26/amazonked/#comment-378</guid>
		<description>Thank you, you are very kind. If the book (either edition) helps you enlighten your co-workers or clients to the benefits of web standards, then that&#039;s all I could wish for and I am very happy to hear it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, you are very kind. If the book (either edition) helps you enlighten your co-workers or clients to the benefits of web standards, then that&#8217;s all I could wish for and I am very happy to hear it.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Bishop</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2006/07/26/amazonked/#comment-374</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Bishop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Jul 2006 13:26:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2006/07/26/amazonked/#comment-374</guid>
		<description>Its something that Amazon really needs to fix. Though perhaps considered a minor problem it is because Amazon does everything else so well that it highlights this issue. 

On a side note the first edition is like a bible to me and I seem to have turned into some sort of evangelist concerning DWWS and can&#039;t recommend it enough. Congrats on the second edition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Its something that Amazon really needs to fix. Though perhaps considered a minor problem it is because Amazon does everything else so well that it highlights this issue. </p>
<p>On a side note the first edition is like a bible to me and I seem to have turned into some sort of evangelist concerning DWWS and can&#8217;t recommend it enough. Congrats on the second edition.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey Zeldman</title>
		<link>http://www.zeldman.com/2006/07/26/amazonked/#comment-372</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey Zeldman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Jul 2006 11:40:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeldman.com/2006/07/26/amazonked/#comment-372</guid>
		<description>About a third of the book is new, a third is lightly updated, and a third is the same as it was, give or take a few jokes. The basic structure and pedagogical approach are the same; the writing is tighter because the world is tougher and so was my editor.

Part I&#039;s updates have to do with changes in the industry, many of them exciting and positive, a few not so much. If you keep up, you&#039;re probably aware of many of these issues, although you might connect the dots differently from me. 

The net is thrown wider, focusing not only on web design and its technological and semantic underpinnings, but also on important emerging ideas and trends that are powered by standards. Awareness of these ideas (ideas that excite your marketing department, let&#039;s say) and their connection to standards may make it easier to sell standards to your colleagues, boss, and clients.

Part II&#039;s changes have to do with &quot;better best practices&quot; that have emerged since DWWS 1e — for instance, a more accessible image replacement technique than Fahrner. Unobtrustive scripting is unobtrusively introduced, and neat-o (but obtrusive) techniques from the first edition are swept into the dustbin. More browser bugs and workarounds are known today, so more are listed and described. The examination of accessibility is updated as well, although most of it remains the same, as the WAI and Section 508 guidelines haven&#039;t officially changed. There&#039;s some discussion of WCAG 2, but if you follow W3C discussions or read A List Apart you&#039;re probably up on it.

If you&#039;re on a tight budget and if you closely follow current web standards discussions and tutorials, you may not need the second edition for yourself.

The question to ask is, if a colleague who is less enlightened than you walks into your office and asks about web standards, do you want to lend him or her an outdated book or an up-to-date one?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>About a third of the book is new, a third is lightly updated, and a third is the same as it was, give or take a few jokes. The basic structure and pedagogical approach are the same; the writing is tighter because the world is tougher and so was my editor.</p>
<p>Part I&#8217;s updates have to do with changes in the industry, many of them exciting and positive, a few not so much. If you keep up, you&#8217;re probably aware of many of these issues, although you might connect the dots differently from me. </p>
<p>The net is thrown wider, focusing not only on web design and its technological and semantic underpinnings, but also on important emerging ideas and trends that are powered by standards. Awareness of these ideas (ideas that excite your marketing department, let&#8217;s say) and their connection to standards may make it easier to sell standards to your colleagues, boss, and clients.</p>
<p>Part II&#8217;s changes have to do with &#8220;better best practices&#8221; that have emerged since DWWS 1e — for instance, a more accessible image replacement technique than Fahrner. Unobtrustive scripting is unobtrusively introduced, and neat-o (but obtrusive) techniques from the first edition are swept into the dustbin. More browser bugs and workarounds are known today, so more are listed and described. The examination of accessibility is updated as well, although most of it remains the same, as the WAI and Section 508 guidelines haven&#8217;t officially changed. There&#8217;s some discussion of WCAG 2, but if you follow W3C discussions or read A List Apart you&#8217;re probably up on it.</p>
<p>If you&#8217;re on a tight budget and if you closely follow current web standards discussions and tutorials, you may not need the second edition for yourself.</p>
<p>The question to ask is, if a colleague who is less enlightened than you walks into your office and asks about web standards, do you want to lend him or her an outdated book or an up-to-date one?</p>
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